Val McDermid ad on alibi-use of word "queer"

[CervixSampler]

This might not be the right board so I apologise for that but I've no idea where to post this. Posters here will be knowledgable though so I figured it was my best bet.

I was enjoying my guilty pleasure of an episode or two of Father Brown and a cup of tea yesterday and an advert caught my attention as I fast forwarded through as I thought I recognised Val McDermid, so I watched with interest as she's one of my favourite authors. It was perhaps linked to Pride month and Val McDermid was talking about the need for there to be more queer people on our screens.

I get confused by acceptable use of language and I thought that 'queer' was deemed offensive. My mum uses it instead of the word 'odd' to describe something strange, not people, and I always inwardly wince as in my teens and twenties it was not an acceptable word to use. Although there was the show Queer As Folk 🤷🏼‍♀️

Is it an acceptable word to use to describe those from the LGBTQ+ community? I'd have to watch again but Val McDermid definitely used all those letters but I might have missed an A out, not sure. Or is it just acceptable within that community?

I always worry about causing offence and struggle to work out what is ok and what isn't and get anxious about getting it wrong (being assessed for ASD).

I would never describe myself as queer (I'm bisexual), I definitely still have a reaction to it as an insult. But also it represents a difference in philosophy between LGBs who just want to get on with life without our sexual orientation being the most interesting thing about us, and those who want to disrupt societal and family structures.

As far as I can tell "queer" is also used by heterosexual people to mean absolutely nothing.

I cannot hear the word 'queer' without my subconscious whispering 'bashing' immediately afterwards.

I don't care who finds it acceptable, I will never use it.

Lots of youngish gay people I know use it but I believe it’s one of those “ok to describe yourself but never use it to describe someone else” situations.

@Viviennemary

I like Val Mcdermid. She seems a good sort. Can't stand Rowling. Such a busy body always wanting her twopennyworth. Thinking what she says is more important than anybody else. Don't get that with Val McDermid

Apart from when she signs mass letters denouncing other people’s very carefully thought out and worded opinions.

I like Val Mcdermid. She seems a good sort. Can't stand Rowling. Such a busy body always wanting her twopennyworth. Thinking what she says is more important than anybody else. Don't get that with Val McDermid

Eh? JKR rarely opines on anything. I can only think of her essay on women's rights and her contribution to the independence debate in two decades of huge fame.

Whereas VM is the opposite, I've seen her write on everything from Scots Gaelic to how to deal with terrorism . I know what VM think of JKR but have no idea about what JKR think of VM.

@Viviennemary am I misunderstanding sarcasm there?

Simple answer, if you're unsure as to whether a particular word will offend, don't use it.

I have trouble understanding use of it by some. Eg: there was a robust discussion in my organisation between a bi woman and a lesbian about whether a female colleague had been a bit homophobic in the course of trying too hard to advertise her allyship. One insisted that the colleague couldn’t be considered homophobic as she was queer. Other disagreed and said she’s straight, what are you on about? First one said no, the colleague in question had recently come out as demi-romantic — she said she only fancies her husband, essentially — and that meant she was on the queer spectrum, and could not be considered an ally as she was part of the LGBTQ community.

Queer is used all the time here, but I have older LGB friends who hate it so I’ll never use it.

It's a useful word, for people who don't fit neatly into the single categories - an asexual lesbian, or a trans bisexual, and for describing a wider community. But if it's not a word that applies to you, then it's probably safer to stick with LGBTQ+ or similar.

If you only fancy your husband you’re queer now?!

I don’t think the demi-romantic woman was even aware she was being claimed as LGBTQ @DaisiesandButtercups , it was being said about her behind her back. It was a long and ardent debate. I had work to do so stayed well out of it.

I don’t blame you for staying well out of it @LazyHorizon!

I wonder if the woman in question actually “came out” as Demi romantic or just mentioned that she only had eyes for her husband. When you think about the difficulties and fears that accompanied “coming out” as gay or lesbian not even that long ago in this country. The real prejudice and discrimination and actual violence and abuse that might be suffered and now this phrase “coming out” is used about only fancying your husband or even not fancying anyone at all. It doesn’t sit well with me somehow. I had friends who came out in the 90’s and even then it was genuinely a big deal and nerve wracking. It seems to belittle what others have gone through.

@CuriousaboutSamphire

Disappointed that she signed against JKR. She always sounds more switched on that that would suggest. She spoke about resisting surgery and chemical intervention in kids on Question Time a while ago.

I can't grab a link but one 2005 Amazon review if The Mermaids Singing was scathing, it's a one star review by someone called Ellen. Maybe McDermid is trying to do better?

Funny how Val McDermid doesn’t get the same vitriol that Jo Rowling does, considered that the character in that book is a cross dressing murderer!

McDermid would go to the opening of a fridge in my opinion ... she likes to cast her net very broadly as a talking head.

If someone wants to call themselves queer, that's their affair, but if anyone dares to use it of me, after it was used while i was being punched in the back of the head after kissing my then girlfriend goodbye at a train station, they can expect me to report them for hate speech, regardless of their intent. I will not stand for it, and 'allies' should take a very careful note of that. I am not alone in despising the word.

I can't imagine ever using the word about a person, it's difficult however to describe Queer Theory without the word.

I've com to the conclusion though that so long as people want slurs, they will exist, they might change but new ones will be found as old ones go out of favour.

There are only two options for a slur to cease to exist. One is that it entirely ceases to be a slur and people begin to use it as purely descriptive and that is all the word brings up for people. The other is that it becomes completely taboo and after a while it becomes archaic because no one uses it any more.

My mum still says queer to mean ill. I don't think I'd ever use it to describe myself or anyone else because of how it's been used as a slur for so long. I feel I wouldn't want to offend someone that had been, say, beaten up while having that word shouted at them. I think it's weird that there can be so many trigger warnings for some words but the word queer can be bandied about with no thought for anyone it might be triggering.

Oh, I didn't see your post when I posted FloralBunting I'm so sorry that happened to you 😞 that's exactly the sort of thing I was thinking about.

Most of the gay/lesbian/bi people I know refer to themselves as queer, and I'd use it within those circles as I'm bi.

I don't know anyone personally who would be offended by it but I'd be much less likely to use it around people who I didn't know identified that way - e.g. a gay friend of mine who prefers not to use it. And I fully understand those who feel it doesn't apply, or feel that it is too painful or still attached to the hateful use to feel appropriate.

Queer is an offensive word, a slur used against gay people. Like many slurs, it's been "reclaimed", but unfortunately it never belonged to many of those who "reclaim" it, and you can't reclaim something that was never yours.

Lots of younger people use "queer" anyway to mean "I'm straight and can't plausibly call myself gay, but I like people to think I have a personality".

Lots of contemporary big institutions (eg the Tate, and the Museum of London) use "queer" to mean "our social media manager went on a diversity and inclusion course run by Stonewall or similar, and since we've paid through the nose for it, it gives us the right to use whatever slurs we like, because we are Edgy and Cool, and who cares if a few Olds who were gaybashed way back when don't like it".

Funnily enough, Val McDermid is one of the few people in the public eye to use "queer" and who also has the right to reclaim it, as she's an older lesbian who very likely has had it yelled at her in anger. I disagree with her, on lots of things (though I like her books), but at least she's earned the right to use it.

But yeah, it's a slur, and when it's used it's hurtful for a lot of people.

Just to be clear, I find it offensive when used by a lot of younger people, even when they are gay, because the chances are they've never had it used as a slur against them. It's not theirs to reclaim.

I can’t imagine ever using it. I get that everyone gets to identify as whatever they want but its history as an insult is too much for me.

Just an aside- but it seems odd to talk of "reclaiming" a word which has always been pejorative or negative.

"Reclaiming" seems more appropriate for a word or concept which started as positive or neutral but became tainted but is being "reclaimed". For example- being able to have a St. George's flag without it being assumed you're a xenophobic thug- or claiming an ethnicity or origin which has been mocked e.g being proud of being "an Okie from Muskogee". "Queer" is subverting, not reclaiming.

@TabbyStar

I would never describe myself as queer (I'm bisexual), I definitely still have a reaction to it as an insult. But also it represents a difference in philosophy between LGBs who just want to get on with life without our sexual orientation being the most interesting thing about us, and those who want to disrupt societal and family structures.

I think this is only half the story, though. I definitely recognise the difference in philosophy you mean, but I think also eg lesbian separatism and other similar lesbian politics are also about disrupting societal/familial structures and yet would overwhelmingly avoid the term 'queer' (increasingly so as 'queer' has become a term so determinedly inclusive it's pretty meaningless).

Isn't that what the Q stands for in LGBTQ? I guess I'd assumed it was now OK on that basis. Why would a slur be absorbed into the main acronym used to represent?

Nell, yes I see what you mean, I was a lesbian separatist for a bit in my 20s, though I think I still see that more as just getting on with our own thing without wanting everyone else to change as queer theory demands, though it's been quite a long time since I thought about it properly!