Woman’s Hour now on Trans athletes

[GoodbyePorpoiseSpit]

Discussion now - focused on the benefits /strength of male puberty despite testosterone levels later

Viques, I always think back to the Diane Modahl case and how she was wrongfully banned (and career all but ruined) for an alleged testosterone violation (she was vindicated in the end). It makes be mad to think that natal women will continue to be caught out in incidences of elevated testosterone (which is not wrong when it is a doping issue), but that trans women can just waltz in with double the normal level for females, and suffer no consequences whatsoever.

elite athletes have physical advantages anyway - in that case do away with male and female sport - just have one category for everyone.

The Moral Maze on Radio 4 tonight is discussing this tonight at 8pm - don't think my blood pressure can bear it.

Emma was excellent on this. Harper didn't sound convinced or convincing. I think Laurel Hubbard as poster girl for transwomen's inclusion in Women's sports really brings home to those who may not have been following the debate just how blatantly unfair it is.

Harper also trotted out 1% of people are trans - that needs to be corrected. I think Radio 4 'More or Less' covered this a while ago.

I do hope they will have Emma Hilton on in the very near future.

That was a really good interview by Emma. She really got to the point and held Harper to account.

I think that this could be the issue that, if these facts were explained to the general public by news outlets, could be the breakthrough we need for people to see how ridiculous this all is.

Correct me if I’m wrong:

• IOC based their decision not on robust scientific evidence but on the research of one solitary student who carried it out as a hobby

• student is trans so hardly impartial

• said research showed trans women have a physical advantage, so doesn’t even back up the IOC’s decision

• the level of testosterone accepted by the IOC for a trans woman to compete in the woman’s category is way way higher than a woman’s level.

My head is spinning.

I think that this could be the issue that, if these facts were explained to the general public by news outlets, could be the breakthrough we need for people to see how ridiculous this all is.

Seems to be. Lots of people were discussing it at work today. Which is brilliant. The sunlight that was really needed.

A few years ago, someone (a man, can't remember who) who was involved in the IOC decision JH was involved with said the meeting was not about whether they would allow trans athlete's in the women's category as that had already been decided. The meeting was to decide the criteria for inclusion, not whether it was fair. I think he said they got to the testosterone level because it was something male athletes could achieve not that it was near the female level.

Part 1, the science: There are significant biological differences between males and females, even after hormone reduction, especially in terms of strength. TW, post-hormone-reduction, are closer in terms of ability to women than to men, though distinct from them.

I'm not sure if you were summing up Harper's claims here, lottiegarbanzo but just to be precise, what the science shows is that male transgender people who medically transition are closer to females than all other males. And it shows that male transgender people who medically transition remain closer to all other males than they are to females.

Imagine a line

M|F

(The vertical line represents an imagined middle.)

What JH claims happens to the male body of an individual when they go on to medically transition (represented here by the ☆), and thus justifies inclusion in female sports:

M|☆__F

What the science shows

M☆|__F

@Hazycoffeek

I think that this could be the issue that, if these facts were explained to the general public by news outlets, could be the breakthrough we need for people to see how ridiculous this all is.

Correct me if I’m wrong:

• IOC based their decision not on robust scientific evidence but on the research of one solitary student who carried it out as a hobby

• student is trans so hardly impartial

• said research showed trans women have a physical advantage, so doesn’t even back up the IOC’s decision

• the level of testosterone accepted by the IOC for a trans woman to compete in the woman’s category is way way higher than a woman’s level.

My head is spinning.

You forgot to mention that the “student” whose scrappy , biased research was used for the decision sat on the IOC committee that made the decision............and is the same person who said on WH that it is fair to be unfair.

@Erikrie

I think that this could be the issue that, if these facts were explained to the general public by news outlets, could be the breakthrough we need for people to see how ridiculous this all is.

Seems to be. Lots of people were discussing it at work today. Which is brilliant. The sunlight that was really needed.

I think Hubbard has inadvertently become the person who points out to the crowd that the Emperor is naked.

That's interesting CharlieParley as that's not what I heard Harper say. I was interested enough that she acknowledged that TW remain in a discrete category from women, not merging in to form some sort of womens' continuum (even if by extending it). That was quite an admission.

Hubbard really does make the case well, being in such a strength-based sport.

Thanks, need the catch up on this tomorrow

@Erikrie

I think that this could be the issue that, if these facts were explained to the general public by news outlets, could be the breakthrough we need for people to see how ridiculous this all is.

Seems to be. Lots of people were discussing it at work today. Which is brilliant. The sunlight that was really needed.

I think a lot of people are beginning to realise that Hubbard represents the true issue of transwomen in women’s spaces/ sport that women are increasingly concerned about. It’s not about softly spoken airbrushed Instagrammers with amazing hair and perfect make up, it’s about Hubbard, Pip Bunce, Karen White to name a few , and middle aged men wearing blue eyeshadow and silk knickers.

The thing that stood out to me listening was the frequency of JH saying "again" as an emphasis to the argument. A question came and the answer started about 3 or 4 times with the word "Again". So the same rationale was used in every answer. The rationale was trans women need to be included, it is not totally unfair. The same answer was given again and again and again. Women don't matter, said again and again and again.

To be precise lottiegarbanzo I was basing that little graphic representation of Harper's claims in the article, not today's interview. And that article was published six months ago and preceded some of the new research that showed that testosterone suppression does not reduce the male advantage. If Harper is now saying male transgender athletes are a distinct group from women, that is a step in the right direction. A reputable scientist would adjust their position to incorporate new findings. If that's happening here, that would be welcome.

Later, on the Moral maze , Harper actually said “what about lesbians in sporting events against women” or something similar . No respect.

Listened to this this morning and was pleasantly surprised to hear EB breaking away from her cool girl stance and to not find her interrogative style uncomfortable for once. Great piece. Let's hope it's going to peak a few more allies