Guardian - What Life Lessons can we learn from femininity coaching?

[merrymouse]

www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2021/jun/20/the-eva-wiseman-column-what-life-lessons-can-we-learn-from-femininity-coaching

Struggling to make sense of this article.

the feminists I know empathise deeply with trans women, partly because of that same itchy fear – we know what it is to want to move freely through the world without being harassed, policed or insulted, but we also know predators feel no need to put on a disguise.

Harassment is not an indicator of sex. Plenty of men are harassed. I'm happy to show them empathy, but that has no bearing on their sex.

The remark about predators seems to assume that women who want access to single sex spaces in situations where they feel vulnerable are worried about men who wear dresses, not just plain old men, however they identify.

I remind myself there are a thousand different ways to be a woman. And fine, if one of those ways means a woman thinks she’ll be more loved if she cleans the oven and refrains from swearing, then girl, fucking go for it.

But there is only one way to be a woman who is advised not to drink alcohol by the WHO, or targeted for rape in Tigray (both reported in June, but apparently there is no special month when women can claim to be more delicate). Meanwhile surely men can clean ovens????

What life lessons can we learn from “femininity coaching”, I don’t know, maybe that the concept of women being innately feminine is a load of wank?
Maybe this is me being the hairy-legged feminist that I am but why on earth would anyone want to be coached to make themselves smaller and more demure so they can attract a guy who is attracted to someone they obviously aren’t, because they require coaching in it.

Generally it’s no skin off my nose if someone wants to be more feminine and clean the oven and never swear or any of that bullshit, but I’ll never understand it. I learned very early on that I was “bad at being a girl” so I just decided to do whatever I wanted to do.

As for any trans issues, I really don’t care what individual people decide to do, I just think gender and sex should be legally defined and separate in law to avoid mixups.

Fuck this shit

It's bizarre that someone might think that that the way to attract lasting romantic love (from a man of course) is to clean ovens and not swear. Or similar allegedly "feminine" behaviours.

I mean, of course, if women (or indeed men) want to do those behaviours then great for them. I would point out to them that doing those things in order to attract lasting romantic love is a complete utter waste of their time.

The message I got was that oppressive gender ideals are fine if they help make trans women feel better about themselves. Did I get that right?

I was perplexed by this article.

As I understand it her point is that she's a raving feminist and normally she would really challenge such notions of what it means to be a woman. But she won't because what it means to be a woman means including the possibility of being bepenised. And because we have to include the bepenised therefore feminists shouldn't challenge any notion of female gender stereotypes.

In other words - because the definition of being a woman has had to expand so much it includes dick therefore everything has to come it.

At least I think that's her point?

I actually think her underlying point is - please don't attack me trans movement that is being led by violent and scary men because I am being compliant and saying what you want. Which is sad.

That however feminine you make yourself; most males do not want to have sex others males.

Most males will choose having sex with masculine women over other men.

shrug

@Nellodee - yes I think that's her point.

As a feminist I'm not going to challenge this because even I can see that if I'm going to include bepenised people in my intersectional feminist goals then that pretty much means I don't have a leg to stand on when it comes to challenging oppressive female gender stereotypes.

Glad you got something from the article...I found it utterly incoherent!

And fine, if one of those ways means a woman thinks she’ll be more loved if she cleans the oven and refrains from swearing, then girl, fucking go for it.

Oh dear.... what have I just red. That whole article was a mess. But this final sentence? Did she actually read it again after she wrote it?

So she is barracking for women who feel they have to do things like cleaning the oven and not swearing to deserve the love of their partner, not to learn to feel worthy of love for themselves, not to get help for their partner to love that woman for themselves and not their usefulness to them... but to just go with it.

Just do the cleaning and refrain from swearing and get that precious reward of love?

And she is telling other women off for not being kind?

Read even.... not red. although I think I did see red reading this article.

Red rag, meet bull. Bull, this is red rag,

Glad you got something from the article...I found it utterly incoherent!

Me too, absolute gobbledygook.

What a mess of an article. I don’t really see her point.

nocoolnamesleft

Yes. There are no words left for a person who tells a potentially abused woman to effectively embrace their abuse, to get better at cleaning the oven and cleaning up their language to better deserve that love from their partner....

The guardian is on a roll

www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2021/jun/21/menopause-conversation-people-want-to-capitalize-on-us-ageing-

Medal for anyone who makes it up the end

It's basically I think about how menopause interacts with our inner gender identity

@334bu

*Glad you got something from the article...I found it utterly incoherent!*

Me too, absolute gobbledygook.

Same. I actually can’t make heads nor tails of it! Really struggled to get through it - felt like word salad.

I came on to post about that menopause article. One of the most sexist things I've read in a long time.

@midgemagneto

The guardian is on a roll

www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2021/jun/21/menopause-conversation-people-want-to-capitalize-on-us-ageing-

Medal for anyone who makes it up the end

It's basically I think about how menopause interacts with our inner gender identity

I just about got past “assigned female at birth “ but the misspelling of “spiel” did it for me and I abandoned it.

The three activities Eva mentions as feminine: grooming, baking and cleaning, are as much male activities as female. Stick the telly on and you will see programmes with men doing all those things.

She's a bit outdated.

I’ve always thought Eva Wiseman was a total lightweight and this is just the latest evidence thereof.

One of the things I was surprised to discover was how hormone therapy could have potentially gender affirming properties for someone like me, who is a cisgender femme woman facing down the loss of many of the typical markers of femininity

Sorry - am I reading this right. She was surprised that female hormones could have an impact on females?

Why does Eva Wiseman even want to call herself a feminist? It doesn't make any sense.

midgemagneto

I cannot claim the medal. I abandoned ship when I read all about the 'femme' shaming and how important it was that a 'nb' person discuss perimenopause and gender.

Particularly in mid life, when some women want to remain femme and feminine, it gets really teasy and shamey and gross. Instead of acknowledging in an empathetic way, oh my gosh, I’m so sorry that you’re having this painful gender crisis, what can we do to help affirm your gender identity? it becomes oh let go of that, you’ve aged out of that, or whatever.

What the fuck?

@FFSFFSFFS

One of the things I was surprised to discover was how hormone therapy could have potentially gender affirming properties for someone like me, who is a cisgender femme woman facing down the loss of many of the typical markers of femininity

Sorry - am I reading this right. She was surprised that female hormones could have an impact on females?

That is the most baffling part of the whole shitty piece for me. How can any woman reach menopause age without being aware of the huge role hormones play?

Jesus what a load of tedious drivel.