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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Liz Truss tells Steven Swinford that she won’t countenance the silencing of debate on race or gender

22 replies

stumbledin · 19/06/2021 16:55

This month Maya Forstater, a tax expert who lost her job after saying that trans women are male or “honorary female”, won an appeal against an employment tribunal which found that the decision to dismiss her was lawful. “I’m pleased Maya Forstater got the result she did in court because it’s important that we are able to debate these issues,” Truss says.

How does she feel about claims by Nancy Kelley, the head of Stonewall, that free speech is not “without limits” and compared “gender critical beliefs” to anti-semitism? “I think it’s always very dangerous to try to brush genuine concerns people have under the carpet and say we can’t talk about them,” Truss says. “It’s much more healthy to have an open debate about ideas, to have an honest discussion, rather than trying to say that people should be cancelled if they try to raise those issues.

“It is important that people are able to express their views freely. It’s important that we protect single-sex spaces for vulnerable women such as domestic abuse shelters, and I will say I’m very concerned to make sure the under 18s aren’t able to undertake irreversible treatment they could later regret.”

Part of a longer article where she also talks about booing footballers taking the knee, levelling up and working from homes will give women more opportunities(?)

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/true-equality-is-about-bread-and-butter-issues-not-just-taking-the-knee-says-liz-truss-psx9jvjvl

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stumbledin · 19/06/2021 16:57

Sorry I ssem to have posted the wrong quote into the title - I hope it hasn't made it too obscure. Blush Should I get MNHQ to change it?

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UtopiaPlanitia · 20/06/2021 02:36

Here’s a link to an archived copy of the interview, for anyone who doesn’t have a Times subscription:

archive.is/0wL5g

RickiTarr · 20/06/2021 02:45

I’m tired & confused, Grin but placemarking for tomorrow.

NiceGerbil · 20/06/2021 02:48

Hmm.

Interesting.

Very mixed feelings.

'“I wouldn’t take the knee and I wouldn’t boo people who took the knee,” she says. “I don’t feel it’s the right thing to do'

Why did she bring this up? Was she asked the question? Has anyone asked her to take the knee?

There was s thread the other day about s new police head. He also mentioned this...

'Stephen Watson told the Daily Telegraph he "would probably kneel before the Queen, God, and Mrs Watson, that's it".

He also said he was concerned about the creation of new "hate crimes" which could overwhelm police as they "sought to criminalise what people think".

Mr Watson joined the force, which is in special measures, in May.

He told the newspaper the public were "getting a little bit fed up of virtue-signalling police officers" and would "rather we just locked up burglars".'

A bit of a coincidence?

NiceGerbil · 20/06/2021 02:51

I also just read this that I didn't see on the bit I read re the police chap.

"I know it might sound... like a relatively outlandish comment but you know it is not an offence to be a misogynist [or] to be a racist," he said.

"What is an offence [is] if in holding those unfortunate beliefs, you act them out in such a way as causes harm to another.

"For example, within the current criminal code if, as a misogynist, you harass another, there is an offence called harassment aggravated by your misogyny.

"If you lay hands on another, it's a criminal assault in statute, aggravated by the fact that you're a misogynist."'

That's s flat out lie isn't it.

Hate crime legislation does not include misogyny.

NiceGerbil · 20/06/2021 02:53

I smell a rat tbh.

RickiTarr · 20/06/2021 02:54

Why did she bring this up? Was she asked the question? Has anyone asked her to take the knee?

It’s a real hot button issue in the Conservative media ATM. John Barnes was critical of TTK in an interview with the newly launched GB News channel last week. The Times has revisited the subject recently. I’m sure if you are a Tory immersed in Tory world, it’s deafening.

NiceGerbil · 20/06/2021 02:55

The Tories look like they're going to use the trans thing to push back on a lot of stuff.

Appease the Pc gawn mad types.

And if that's the plan who will get the blame?

Rhetorical question obv.

RickiTarr · 20/06/2021 02:57

Sorry, meant to say I smell a general laying out of her stall, but I’m not Tory enough to be the intended audience and way too tired to read it all, so I will follow up tomorrow. I will have a fiver she has her eye on higher office, though.

RickiTarr · 20/06/2021 02:58

The sad thing is I barely clock who my strange bedfellows are on the TRA/GC issue anymore gerbil.

NiceGerbil · 20/06/2021 03:00

@RickiTarr

Why did she bring this up? Was she asked the question? Has anyone asked her to take the knee?

It’s a real hot button issue in the Conservative media ATM. John Barnes was critical of TTK in an interview with the newly launched GB News channel last week. The Times has revisited the subject recently. I’m sure if you are a Tory immersed in Tory world, it’s deafening.

But I mean in the end. Why do they care? So much?

Football in the UK does have massive issues with racist fans. In other countries as well.

If they take the knee is it virtue signalling? Or is it because they've seen team mates racially abused by fans time and time again?

I suspect the latter.

They are saying to their obsessive fans. We think your arseholes. Stop it.

I was talking about virtue signalling the other day with DH and said actually. Given the racism prevalent with football supporters. It's almost certainly real.

They know they will get booed and they do it.

And because of who they are, some people just might have s think.

RickiTarr · 20/06/2021 03:06

Ideology. Small government. Minimum intervention in societal ills. The rich and successful are so because they earned it. Yada yada. The hard right fundamentally don’t believe in tackling inequality.

RickiTarr · 20/06/2021 03:07

Or is it because they've seen team mates racially abused by fans time and time again?

And those are the other lot - the realists.

NiceGerbil · 20/06/2021 03:29

If the plan is what it seems to be.

Stamp down on PC gone wrong.

And using the trans rights stuff to back that.

Then it will all be women's fault.

Great.

The huge lie from the police fella about misogyny is really worrying tbh. It's s massive in your face total lie.

Why are they using women in this way?

It can't be good.

newnortherner111 · 20/06/2021 10:49

@NiceGerbil if hate crime legislation included misogyny, the Prime Minister would face a long list of charges.

Needmoresleep · 20/06/2021 12:31

I think she is being clever focussing on the right to debate issues, rather than on the issues themselves.

This provides the link. People may believe that TWAW, they may not. Discussion would help tease out the issues, and help achieve societal consensus. Ditto taking the knee. Some believe it is an important symbol, others believe that if it is expected of people it becomes meaningless. Truss will have her views on both issues, Tory voters will have their views on both issues, posters here will have their views. All may differ. I hope though that most can agree that there is a need to be able to discuss things without being insulted and being labelled transphobic or racist or whatever, or even lose their jobs. The right to free speech is crucial, which I hope is something everyone can agree on.

FWIW I would hope that a debate on taking the knee would conclude that BLM needs to achieve a lot more than toppling a few statues or having footballers take the knee.

RickiTarr · 20/06/2021 12:49

I hope though that most can agree that there is a need to be able to discuss things without being insulted and being labelled transphobic or racist or whatever, or even lose their jobs. The right to free speech is crucial, which I hope is something everyone can agree on.

Yes, absolutely and we definitely have an issue at the moment around freedom of public debate, cancel culture, public discussion spaces being privately owned (Twitter, Facebook etc), that is impinging on free speech.

The problem is that I don’t trust LT and her agenda. It would be nice to see people of all political hues addressing the need for free public debate and freedom of conscience.

Beamur · 20/06/2021 15:58

I think LT is a perfect example of a Tory MP who can read the room.

NiceGerbil · 20/06/2021 16:19

This is aimed at the PC gorn mad people. There's an awful lot of them.

I am concerned what they are heading to. Right to express racist opinions? Like the racism in football? And the MP and the cop both were very firm they would never take the knee. Even though... Have they ever been expected to?

I'm concerned.

Whatever comes out of this will be the fault of women who said no. Perfect scapegoat. Women who say no have never been liked.

thinkingaboutLangCleg · 20/06/2021 16:25

I don’t trust LT and her agenda. It would be nice to see people of all political hues addressing the need for free public debate and freedom of conscience.

It certainly would be nice, Ricki, but it isn't happening. For some reason and the most obvious reason is misogyny liberals and almost all the left are united in their support for the male supremacist agenda. And that threatens me a hell of a lot more than any agenda Liz Truss may have.

stumbledin · 20/06/2021 17:04

I think behind this article and a recent one about Penny Mordaunt and some other Tory MPs is about some sort of internal power struggle going on. Boris basically got to be PM be cosying up to the hard rightpro Brexit, little englanders. (Even those most people say he is actually a sort of wishy washy liberal but thinks playing Churchill will make him popular).

So many moderate Tories had to stay quiet. Then there was the whole Cummings throw everything out of the window, anti politics politics.

So it would be nice to think that someone like Liz Truss actually cares about women's issues and it isn't just a yah boo sucks political opposition to Labour, Greens etc..

I think the issue about racism is again a sort of thing they were saying last year "we musn't let fringe groups capture the agenda".

Some on the hard right are saying if you take the knee you sort the (or rather a because there is no THE) BLM agenda said to be defund the police etc.. Others say taking the knee is BLM a popular sentiment not a politcal group.

So Truss etc., are saying this is true freedom to allow expression of opinion from all sides. And differentiating herself from the ERG etc..

I am personally cynical about the footbally element as it isn't that many years ago that football was all about standing up to domestic violence, wearing a white ribbon etc.. As with that I am sure some are sincere, and obviously given footballs ingrained racism something needs to be done. And with all due respect to the history of taking the knee and the intention behind it, in this arena I wonder how much it actually does. Any more than did anything change the levels of domestic violence because for a few years footballers wore a white ribbon?

But to get back to Liz Truss speaking up for women only spaces.

I think it is extremely concerning that in 21st century in the UK there seems to be only one Tory Minister who (for whatever reason) has said this outloud. Dont forget (it was said that) Theresa May was all for it as were the seemingly endless number of women appointed to be Equalities Minister for a few months before moving on to some other position with more male political status.

That is an enourmous worry. Whether or not you like her. She is the only one who has stood up for women only spaces.

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stumbledin · 20/06/2021 17:08

oh dear didnt check before posting. silly typos:

if you take the knee you sort the (or rather a because there is no THE) BLM agenda said to be defund the police etc..
if you take the knee you SUPPORT the (or rather A, because there is no THE) BLM agenda said to be defund the police etc..

Theresa May was all for it
Theresa May was all for self ID

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