Would anyone mind if I ask a question about Robin Moria White?

[rabbitwoman]

I am sure she won't mind because she used to come here often to plug her book as the definitive guide to trans law.

I just wondered if it might need considerable editing after yesterday? As it will now have to take into account the judgement in Maya Forstater 's case?

Just to add, I had not read a huge amount about Maya. I had read Robin's piece in the independent and thought that it seemed maya was transphobic, and had behaved in a dreadful way.

But I have read all about it in the past few weeks and read the whole judgement yesterday and it's taken my breath away that Robin has not been even reprimanded for what she wrote. Why not?

www.google.com/search?q=robin+moira+white+forstater&oq=robin&aqs=chrome.0.69i59l3j69i57j69i60.2312j0j7&client=ms-android-vf-gb-revc&sourceid=chrome-mobile&ie=UTF-8

Hi @RobinMoiraWhite 👍

Welcome!

I appreciate as an author you want people to buy your book and as such don't want to give away spoilers.

That said most authors give a taster to encourage sales.

Anything you would care to share regarding this updated version?

I don't like to live in an echo chamber so am most interested in your views (and it's not the first time I've asked for them - though it might be the first time I get a response).

Thank you.

Did you see Maya's T-shirt?

Beautiful 😍😍😍

@TheShadowyFeminist

So. Gender Critical views - worthy of respect in a democratic society. Who here agrees?

Too broad a question - it depends on the particular views.

RMW provided some taste of what's in the booking when participating in the Pink News event, iirc:

Ah, I remember the last time you employed avoidance tactics Robin. And here we are again.

It's in the judgement.

"the belief that biological sex is real, important, immutable and not to be conflated with gender identity"

HTH

The judge said in Maya case:-

"The judgement does not mean that those with gender critical beliefs can ‘misgender’ trans persons with impunity"

So it doesn't say 'can't' misgender.

Do you think a woman raped by a male who claims to be a woman should be compelled to refer to their assailant as 'she'?

@TheShadowyFeminist

So. Gender Critical views - worthy of respect in a democratic society. Who here agrees?

Moi

@horsespirit

I've read the section on gender critical beliefs. It aligns with what the judge said and the Unions said yesterday reminding us all that no one should manifest their beliefs in a discriminatory, harassing or intimidatory manner in the work place. This means trans people can't be misgendered.

From my understanding it doesn't say that.

For example, someone shouldn't be censured for accidentally using the wrong pro-nouns.

On the other hand, deliberately and repeatedly refusing to use a persons preferred pronouns with the intent of causing a hostile work place and/or as a means of harassing someone is unacceptable. Rightly so imho.

On the flip side, forcing someone to believe in gender identity is also unacceptable. As is creating a hostile working environment for them, so no calling them terfs/bigots etc

In that sense this ruling could go further in so far that creating an non inclusive workplace for GC employees may include demands to state their pronouns and celebrate days/events that are contrary to their GC beliefs - such as attending training by the likes of Stonewall etc

@TheShadowyFeminist

To TalkingToLangClegInTheDark

Money is tight right now so purchasing a book at £30 when the author is clearly not very keen to plug it is not a financially viable option for me right now.

So I shall put this one on the backburner for now but can anyone recommend something similar? I do love me some Dystopian fantasy.

Refusing to provide spoilers for a law book is a new one on me.

@TheShadowyFeminist

So. Gender Critical views - worthy of respect in a democratic society. Who here agrees?

It's a yes from me.

Another for tinsel

‪The judge said of the belief that ‘as a matter of biology a trans person is still their natal sex’ may well be profoundly offensive and even distressing to many others‬

Horsespirit.

Others peoples beliefs of or non-beliefs of God are also extremely offensive and distressing for some people. Doesn’t mean we have to pretend to be religious/atheist for other peoples sake.

@TheShadowyFeminist

@horsespirit

‪The judge said of the belief that ‘as a matter of biology a trans person is still their natal sex’ may well be profoundly offensive and even distressing to many others‬

Were you aware that your (presumed) beliefs that TWAW, for example, are profoundly distressing and offensive to me, and other women?

Am being entirely serious here. I think your belief system both derives from and promotes misogyny, and as such, as a woman in a world already awash with misogyny, I find it both deeply distressing and genuinely offensive.

Are you still entitled to your beliefs now that you know what profound distress and offence they cause me? How I feel they contribute to a hostile working and indeed living environment for women?

The judgement made clear Employers and service providers will have to provide a safe environment for trans persons so the impact of the judgement is limited in its impact and when Maya gets sent back to the ET the manifestation of her beliefs with get tested. For others to judge if she then wins or loses.

On the flip side, forcing someone to believe in gender identity is also unacceptable. As is creating a hostile working environment for them, so no calling them terfs/bigots etc

This is where it’s going to get really tricky. I don’t want to be forced to believe in gender identity, nor to act as if I do.

If I know a person is biologically male, it goes against my sincere and deeply held beliefs to refer to that person as if they were female. Forcing me to do so would be compelled speech and I would experience it as harassment.

But if I refer to that person with male pronouns, that person would say I was harassing them.

The Christian bakers were allowed to refuse to write a pro gay marriage slogan on a cake. Can I similarly be allowed to refuse to refer to a biologically male person with female pronouns? And if so, how would I then refer to that person, supposing I were to work with them, in a way they didn’t feel constituted harassment, and I didn’t feel constituted coercion?

It’s a dilemma. Now that my beliefs are recognised as being protected in law, it’s one which will have to be resolved at some point.

@horsespirit

The judgement made clear Employers and service providers will have to provide a safe environment for trans persons so the impact of the judgement is limited in its impact and when Maya gets sent back to the ET the manifestation of her beliefs with get tested. For others to judge if she then wins or loses.

Employers and service providers also have to provide a safe environment for women. Including women with gender critical beliefs.

Welcome to Mumsnet horsespirit! What was it about the site that encouraged you to sign up an hour or so ago?

Are you still entitled to your beliefs now that you know what profound distress and offence they cause me? How I feel they contribute to a hostile working and indeed living environment for women?

Would you like to consider my question and perhaps answer it, horsespirit? It’s an interesting thought experiment is all.

All this was said about gay and lesbian people and same sex marriage. Their existence or Union does not harm or interfere with other people's rights. Rights are not a pie to be divided. No one, trans or gender critical person, should be discriminating, harassing or intimidating other people because of who they are.