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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Confused about Stonewall

21 replies

Spottybluepyjamas · 11/06/2021 15:05

Hi all, I'm a bit embarrassed that that trans debate and current removal of the words 'women' and 'girls' has only fairly recently come to my attention. The more I read about it the more confused I get, and if I'm completely honest, the angrier I get too.

I've been seeing a lot about Stonewall and am a bit confused about that aspect of it too. From looking online at their website, and what I know of them historically, they are primarily about inclusivity and acceptance. I'm absolutely on board with that.

However I've seen a lot of comments around about what is happening in schools because of Stonewall and I'd like to understand a bit more. Can anyone give me a top line synopsis, or is there a thread that anyone can point me to that gives a factual account of how stonewall are involved in schools and what they are trying to achieve, and if it is happening in reality? Thank you.

OP posts:
RoyalCorgi · 11/06/2021 15:09

If you're interested in their influence in schools, this is a good place to start:

www.transgendertrend.com/product/stonewall-schools-guidance-a-critical-review/

Spottybluepyjamas · 11/06/2021 15:09

Thank you @RoyalCorgi - I'll have a look at that

OP posts:
NonnyMouse1337 · 11/06/2021 15:09

Start with this news article which touches the surface of people's concerns.

archive.vn/Rb8AT

Then read about Allison Bailey and why she is bringing a case against Stonewall and her chambers.

allisonbailey.co.uk/

Datun · 11/06/2021 15:28

Very briefly, and in layman's terms, Stonewall changed their remit a few years ago, by including T in LGB.

The feeling is that they had achieved almost everything in terms of equal rights based on sexual orientation, and so looked towards transgender ideology as the next thing.

Unfortunately, it directly conflicts with their original remit.

They maintain that one's sex is determined by an inner gender identity. The feeling that you are male or female, rather than the fact of biology. And therefore homosexuality is based on feelings, rather than facts. Hence two males, if they say they are females, can be called lesbians.

Which leads to heterosexual males, pressuring lesbians for relationships and sex, on the basis that those heterosexual males are really homosexual females.

There has been a lot of persecution of gay men and lesbian women as a result. Including being told that their sexual orientation is a 'genital fetish'.

At the same time, many people, who were in the past, perhaps a bit ashamed about not supporting LGB people, enthusiastically embraced the addition of the T, in the mistaken belief that it was all part and parcel of the same thing.

Stonewall runs a scheme where they offer to formulate your LGBT policy for a fee. And you get awarded a place in their championship scheme, on the basis of how well you implement their policy. It's a yearly service, with a yearly fee.

What has happened is that they have misrepresented the law in terms of the civil rights of trans gender people under the protected characteristic of gender reassignment, to the detriment of women.

There are plenty of exceptions under the law which says women can have their own spaces and services. But Stonewall seem to keep this information to them self when training others.

It culminated in two women being no platformed by the university of Essex purely on the basis of their opinion about the trans ideology, even though one of them was going to speak about, I believe, Jewish persecution.

The University of Essex had an independent review of whether they had acted lawfully and it turned out they hadn't. That was the beginning of stonewalls exposure.

Since then it turns out that almost every government department, numerous universities, schools, The DVLA, the police etc, in fact 850 different organisations across the country, are signed up to stonewalls scheme.

Liz Truss (Minister for women and equalities, among other titles), has urged all government departments to withdraw membership on the basis of budgetary concerns. Other organisations are calling them dubious.

Stonewall are doubling down. Even going so far as to liken people who are critical of the transgender ideology to anti semites.

Oh, and they are being sued by Allison Bailey. A lesbian barrister who is accusing them of interfering in her chambers because of her views about the trans ideology.

The emails that have been made public are fairly damning.

If you advance search even the last month, with the word stonewall in the title, you will find all the info. Including exactly what people have to sign up for, when they enter the scheme. How much work is involved, and what they have to commit to. And it's not just about them. It extends to Their suppliers and tangential people connected to their organisation.

The real concern is how they have managed to acquire such a grip on so many organisations.

GNCQ · 11/06/2021 15:46

Which leads to heterosexual males, pressuring lesbians for relationships and sex, on the basis that those heterosexual males are really homosexual females.

This is an awful lot to take in as a newby, but it's unfortunately completely true.

Lesbians have suffered the brunt of gender ideology for too long now, all because some men have a fetish for being seen as a woman, whilst being sexually attracted to women.
AGP is one of the most common paraphilia, and seeing as 5% of men have a paraphilia of some sort, that's a lot of men in comparison to the lesbian population.

Stonewall have supported these men above actual lesbian women. And schools have taken on board everything else they say. Payed for it too. They're simply not to be trusted.

yourhairiswinterfire · 11/06/2021 15:53

Oh, and they are being sued by Allison Bailey. A lesbian barrister who is accusing them of interfering in her chambers because of her views about the trans ideology

Yes, do take a look at how they behaved towards Allison if you have the time OP.

Allison's Chambers were signed up to Stonewall's Diversity Champion's Scheme. Because Allison disagrees with a lot of what Stonewall stands for, Stonewall sent a letter to Allison's Chambers (Garden Court Chambers) stating that if they continued ''associating'' with Allison, it would put Stonewall and the GCC in a ''difficult position''.

Allison is suing her Chambers and Stonewall and recently had a preliminary hearing, where the Judge described Stonewall's letter as 'a threat'.

Allison has her own website here where it goes into a lot of detail if you want to read about the background and all the updates.

allisonbailey.co.uk/

FindTheTruth · 11/06/2021 16:04

Stonewall are all about same-gender attraction these days and not same-sex attraction which was it's original remit. and as Datun says gays and lesbians have been persecuted. And it's compounded as it's done in the name of LGB

This by Peter Daly, who represented Maya Forstater:
www.linkedin.com/pulse/forstater-judgment-what-next-peter-daly/
"A significant portion of lesbian, gay or bisexual people are very clear that they are same-sex (and not same-gender) attracted. For many, their sexual orientation is therefore incompatible with a belief in Gender Theory. Being Gender Critical is therefore a fundamental aspect of their sexual orientation, and therefore their identity. An insistence on the primacy of same gender-attraction can lead, for example, to lesbians being accused of transphobia by stating that they are not sexually attracted to males. Proponents of the Cotton Ceiling (for an explanation of this term, google it) might now be less vocal."

"For Gender Critical gays and lesbians, the insistence of homosexuality as same-gender attraction can be seen as unvarnished, base homophobia of the type that even five years ago was thought defeated, except within the most reactionary and bigoted corners of society. It is compounded when done in the name of LGBTQ rights: interpreted as being sold a version of your own sexuality which simultaneously erases your sexuality. A rejection of such an interpretation of Gender Theory is an aspect of Gender Critical belief, and it is established as a protected belief by this judgment."

OhHolyJesus · 11/06/2021 21:19

In addition to all that, CEO Nancy Kelly compared those who recognise biological fact (that you cannot change your sex, often called 'gender critical' beliefs) to be similar to anti-Semitism on our National state broadcaster.

"She likened so-called "gender critical" beliefs to anti-Semitism."

www.bbc.com/news/uk-57281448

Stonewall wish to remove

Confused about Stonewall
OhHolyJesus · 11/06/2021 21:21

Sorry posted too soon...

SW wish to remove single sex exemptions and amend the protected characteristics in equality law.

This change happened around the same time they added the T to the LGB.

NecessaryScene · 11/06/2021 21:52

Fantastic stuff here. Maybe something for the "Break it down for me" thread?

faithinnature1 · 11/06/2021 21:53

Sorry to jump in but similar to the OP I am getting to grips with what is going on, can you @FindTheTruth or anyone explain further what this bit about the judgement means because I'm not sure I could explain in my own words what it means, I really want to fully understand. I don't know what I am supposed to think, my workplace talks about stonewall as if it is most certainly right to support it and I have trusted, gay and lesbian colleagues who I believe care about the chartermark. Thank you

For Gender Critical gays and lesbians, the insistence of homosexuality as same-gender attraction can be seen as unvarnished, base homophobia of the type that even five years ago was thought defeated, except within the most reactionary and bigoted corners of society. It is compounded when done in the name of LGBTQ rights: interpreted as being sold a version of your own sexuality which simultaneously erases your sexuality.

OhHolyJesus · 11/06/2021 22:09

SW once deleted a tweet which made reference to homosexuality being same-sex attraction.

For people who are same-sex attracted, to be told, or have it insisted, that this is transphobic because it is based on sex not 'gender'...or that it is simply a 'genital preference' (that again is transphobic if it is your reason for not dating a trans person) is homophobic itself, some might even find the insistence bordering on a form of conversion therapy (not the electric kind, more the rape kind).

(See Get the L Out research and Magdalen Berns on you tube)

Should a lesbian accept a male bodied person who believes their 'gender identity' to be female? To reject a male bodied person, as a same-sex female, would it be transphobic?

In at least one org I've seen 'transbians' be referred to as 'strapless', as lesbians who sleep with other lesbians might use strap-ons. No joke.)

YouSetTheTone · 11/06/2021 22:11

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4138824-Template-for-letter-about-Stonewall-in-schools

Hi op you might find this thread useful from earlier this year.
(I did contact my (Tory) MP about it and he’s been great. Sadly the Dept of Education less so.. but I’m keeping the conversation going and pushing back. Hoping the recent developments make a big difference).

DeRigueurMortis · 11/06/2021 22:19

I'd also recommend reading this on Stonewall:

legalfeminist.org.uk/2021/02/01/submission-and-compliance/

DeRigueurMortis · 11/06/2021 22:30

[quote DeRigueurMortis]I'd also recommend reading this on Stonewall:

legalfeminist.org.uk/2021/02/01/submission-and-compliance/[/quote]

Just to note that since publication Maya Forstarter won her case against GCD and as such anyone holding gender critical beliefs cannot be discriminated against for holding those views.

This is not (not ever was) intended to be a green light for transphobic

DeRigueurMortis · 11/06/2021 22:35

Ahh posted too soon....cont

This is not (not ever was) intended to be a green light for transphobic behaviour.

Harassment or discrimination on the basis of gender reassignment is not acceptable (for example deliberately and repeatedly refusing to use a persons preferred pro-nouns, trying to get them fired or creating an environment that is hostile).

What's changed is that in turn it's also not acceptable to harass or discriminate against a person because they believe you can't change sex by calling them a bigot/Terf, trying to get the fired and creating a hostile workplace).

DadDadDad · 11/06/2021 22:50

Lots of good replies.

What got me cross recently was the CEO of Stonewall saying gender critical (that sex is a reality and whatever gender you express, you can't change your sex) is on the same level as anti-semitism.

The equation they try to suggest is that being gender critical is the same as transphobia (attacking transgender people and denying that they can have a gender identity). In my view, that doesn't add up: how in fact can you recognise someone as trans unless you believe they have a gender identity that differs from their sex, so their sex must be a physical reality that is separate from their internal sense of self!

CardinalLolzy · 11/06/2021 22:55

SW once deleted a tweet which made reference to homosexuality being same-sex attraction.

I saw this play out on twitter. They posted that homosexuality was same-sex attraction then tried to quietly delete it. This was the point for me where I realised no, I wasn't just misunderstanding them, I wasn't just being a bit unkind, they really were denying same-sex attraction. Just really drove it home.

PurgatoryOfPotholes · 11/06/2021 23:14

This is an extract from one blogger's quick guide to Stonewall. The full thing is well worth a read, esp. as I can't copy and paste screenshots.

sheridansinclair.substack.com/p/what-happened-to-stonewall-uk

Where did it all go wrong? In 2015 Stonewall officially ‘added the T’ to LGB and began seriously campaigning in earnest for ‘Trans Rights’. The CEO at the time, Ruth Hunt, admitted that it would be controversial, and it’s important to note how trans rights was framed around the nebulous and loose concept of ‘transgender’ rather than ‘transsexual’, which to this day is still what most people think of when they think of ‘trans’. For those who now think of Stonewall as it currently is as a predominantly transgender pressure group, it will be a shock to look back to even the start of 2015 when Stonewall talk about exclusively advocating for gay, lesbian and bisexual people.

Whether you agree or disagree with whether it is possible to be ‘transexual’ (i.e., someone with such extreme dysphoria over their sexed body that they take drastic medical steps to address this, including what is euphemistically referred to as ‘sex change surgery’, which for a man involves castrating him and surgically inverting his penis to make something that cosmetically resembles a vagina), it is important to remember that such people as they are remain a minority within a minority. Only 5 thousand people in the UK have a Gender Recognition Certificate (GRC) and less than 4 thousand ‘sex reassignment surgeries’ have taken place over 4 decades. Stonewall claim there are at least 600,000 transgender individuals in the country, which would mean more than 99% remain legally and physically indistinguishable from their natal sex.

Stonewall’s inclusion of ‘trans’ seemed to involve them fully embracing the nebulous and unscientific concept of ‘gender identity’ which many transsexual people themselves also reject. It is an extremely offensive, misogynistic and homophobic belief system that postulates that the reason for sexist stereotypes is an innate ‘gendered brain’ and that what a woman is, rather than being an adult human female, is in fact adherence to reductive patriarchal stereotypes of femininity.

The focus on transgender issues – rather than transsexual issues – can be seen in trans advisory board member Alex Drummond who joined shortly after Stonewall adding ‘the T’. Alex is a heterosexual man who decided after studying gender studies that he is both a woman and a lesbian. He has no dysphoria over his sexed body, is openly terrified of hormones and surgery, and Stonewall parade him around primary schools with his full beard and intact cock ‘n’ balls and present him to kids as young as 4 as an example of a ‘lesbian’.

Anyone who has not seen it – I strongly recommend you check out the late great Magdalen Berns’ video on Drummond – it’s 4 minutes long but I guarantee it will change your life.Link here to my post on Magdalen which also includes a link to the relevant video.

What about the LGB?

Followers of Stonewall noticed that not only were they starting to focus more on trans issues, but they rarely seemed to focus on L, G or B issues anymore. In particular, they seemed to hardly ever use the word ‘lesbian’ at all in social media posts. Here’s a fun game to play – go to twitter advanced search and search for certain words over a set time period from the @stonewalluk twitter account. I chose a year – May 2020 to April 2021 – and here’s what I found out. Over that time a grand total of zero mentions of ‘homosexual’, 4 for ‘homophobia’, 23 for ‘lesbian’, 29 for ‘gay’, 41 for ‘bisexual’ or ‘bi’ and… 215 for ‘trans’. One tweet you won’t find any more in Stonewall’s twitter history, is a tweet originally sent on International Day Against Homophobia, Biphobia and Transphobia 2020 (known by the Tolkienesque abbreviation ‘IDAHOBIT’). The employee handling the social media that day made a cardinal sin – referring to ‘same-sex attraction’. This is a big no, and as you may have noticed with zero mentions of homosexuality in the last year, Stonewall UK’s official stance now is that the word ‘homosexuality’ is an offensive or medical term that refers to ‘same gender’ attraction. Same sex attraction is something they officially no longer recognise. And they wonder why we are angry.

As we move forward, the focus on LGB will continue to be pushed further to the back as Stonewall now has its sight set on including even more ‘marganialised’ groups into their advocacy, and the ever expanding alphabet soup. Trans now implicitly includes any and all gender identities including ‘non-binary’, something unthinkable just 5 years ago. They are also now aiming to push further with advocacy for ‘asexual’ – people with little or no sex drive; ‘aromantic’ – people who like sex but not relationships; ‘demisexual’ – people who need to know someone a bit before they shag them; ‘polyamorous’ – people who have multiple sexual partners and of course ‘queer’ – the juries out on that one. To say this is offensive is an under statement. LGB rights has been a long, hard struggle, and there are many places in the world where we still have little or no rights, or are criminalised. People-who-like-a-coffee-and-a-chat before getting their groove on are not to my mind a marginalised or oppressed group. And it should also be noted that ‘asexual’ and ‘aromantic’ may themselves be symptoms of health issues – whether physical or mental.

Continues: sheridansinclair.substack.com/p/what-happened-to-stonewall-uk

Spottybluepyjamas · 12/06/2021 11:17

Thank you so much to everyone who has taken the time to point me towards articles, and blogs and their own points of view.

I'm slowly working my way through them, and I'm absolutely horrified at the extent of the influence that Stonewall have in schools. Surely what they now stand for just encourages gender stereotypes that we've worked so hard to break! Personally I don't give a hoot how people navigate through life as long as they don't hurt anyone else, but choosing to wear a dress doesn't change someone's gender and allow them into safe spaces for girls if they just claim to be one. And safeguarding seems to have gone out of the window - keeping the child's preferred gender from the parents and referring in secret to the Tavistock GIDS is horrendous.

I'm so concerned about how this is allowed to happen. It feels to me like brainwashing one of the most vulnerable groups in society.

OP posts:
YouSetTheTone · 12/06/2021 12:20

Spottybluepyjamas absolutely. And training girls to ignore their boundaries re safeguarding and single sex spaces. Teaching them it’s more important to ‘be kind’ and accept people of the opposite sex in their single sex bathrooms or sports teams. Surely this also has a knock on effect on their ability to speak for themselves and value themselves in other areas of life?

The MP in the Dept of Education rather patronisingly dismissed my concerns by saying there was ‘no place for discrimination in our education system’. Well the point is that as it stands the resources advocated for use in schools by Stonewall DOES lead to discrimination. Towards girls and the women they will grow up to be! He could obviously only see discrimination through one lens.

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