Trans in the UK: What the Hell are we going to do?

[WhatyoutalkingaboutWillis]

harryjosiegiles.medium.com/trans-in-the-uk-what-the-hell-are-we-going-to-do-73fef741cef6

If Giles is Scottish and mid thirties Giles might even have been involved in writing the Edinburgh Action for Trans Health Manifesto.

That was really interesting thank you for posting.

It's good to read something that is detailed and thought out rather than no debate.

I have a lot of thoughts so in brief.

During the first parts I thought. When women present arguments about our concerns, we tend to feel it personally. And are arguing against the likes of stonewall, orgs with power who are changing stuff, and the vocal extreme tras. Women feel personally under attack by things that are way bigger than them, feel very insecure and are outraged at eg prisons etc. The risks to us as a group are blatantly obvious.

The tone of that was similar. Ordinary trans people I'm sure read the stuff in the press and feel personally attacked. Just going about life quietly, why is there all this stuff drawing attention etc. And the fact that loads of people will be suspicious, hateful etc to those who can be seen as trans is true. So it's again a feeling of massive groups against you.

Ok so good.

The stuff about grassroots etc all good. Why the hell haven't stonewall etc been doing stuff that actually helps? That's alluded to. Mutual support groups. Trying to improve services for eg poverty will help all, doesn't always need to be trans only.

Yep yep.

Then it compounds that big forces thing. It's fair to say that women who have been openly pushing back are fairly small in number. I can see how that could be seen, when under threat, in the way it's presented. It's incorrect that it's a few women and where's the money coming from but I can get why that conclusion could seem right. The right wing stuff. Not sure. But women know and suspect that our rights are always on wobbly ground so I can see that.

I have no doubt that people who others see as trans get an awful lot of shit. Discrimination. Violence. No doubt about that.

I admit I skimmed a bit towards the end.

The point about working with others esp feminists to get rid of sex roles (gender binary) ok great let's do it.

The stuff towards the end, well a lot I'd argue with.

The idea near the beginning of shared electrolysis units is a really good one. Is it called electrolysis? The hair thing. Yes. That's a great idea! Cost effective, benefits many, helping each other etc etc.

In the end I was really pleased to read a thought through piece where I could say yep yep that's good. No don't agree but can see why you've said that. Nope don't agree at all.

This feels like a person that could be worked with, you know? Who might listen. Who I for one would listen to. And maybe come up with some mutually beneficial ideas.

The polarised fight thing is the direct fault of those who planned to and got things changed in the background, stonewall etc.

Feminists and trans people could and should have been allies. If it had been grassroots it would have been. We have both been fucked over by these shadowy shenanigans.

So yes thank you for sharing.

Stonewall etc have such a lot to answer for.

Maybe there should be some attempt to connect with some people like this? Just to talk. Share concerns and experiences. Agree disagree but understand that in the end at this level for both sides it's about fear. And fuck nodebate. Maybe it wouldn't get anywhere but it's worth a shot.

This person's concerns are much more relatable as well. Poverty. Police not interested. Employment discrimination etc. Real concerns. Not Olympic sport or being eligible for woman of the year awards iyswim.

Yeah thanks OP :)

@Winterlight

I believe that’s the same writer who wrote the truly bonkers article titled ‘Wages for Transition ‘ which contains such gems as....

‘When we commit armed robbery to fund our surgeries, that is wages for transition. When drag performers unionise, that is wages for transition. When we distribute grey market hormones at gender reveal parties, that is wages for transition. When we take sick pay to lie at home in bed crying and watching make-up tutorials, that is wages for transition.

On and on it goes!

Yes, it is.

harryjosiegiles.medium.com/wages-for-transition-dce2b246b9b7

HJG is a well-known name in Scottish GC feminist circles. Deeply unpleasant and narcissistic person that targeted some of our women.

@Ereshkigalangcleg

If Giles is Scottish and mid thirties Giles might even have been involved in writing the Edinburgh Action for Trans Health Manifesto.

Yeah probably. He’s pretty chummy with some academics at Edinburgh Uni and has co-authored stuff with them before.

I love the Action on Trans Health manifesto. It’s so reassuringly bonkers. As well as demanding the right for trans people to operate on one another at will, it wants complete self-id AND the immediate release of all prisoners who identify as trans. Can’t see any problem there at all.

I believe that’s the same writer who wrote the truly bonkers article titled ‘Wages for Transition

My god, I think that ones is even madder than the ATH manifesto.

Wages for transition is thus a decolonial demand which refuses the limited perspective that only specific colonial forms of labour, organisation and transition have revolutionary subjectivity. We demand the immediate end to the occupation of Indigenous land and the theft of resources, and we demand reparations to nourish the sur-thrivance of all whose genders and transitions are resurging against settler-colonisation. We demand ongoing recompense for the injurious labour of all trans people of colour and all women of colour through and against the production of colonial capitalist gender systems. We demand ongoing payment from imperial states for the labour of activists undoing the extractive colonial laws that regulate gender and sexuality as part of the globalisation of imperial capitalism.

How can we get this bloke on the today program to promote his ideas?

I’d find this stuff funny if it wasn’t written/ acted on by people bigger and more aggresdive than me, with a grudge against women, in a society that readily finds excuses for violence against women ….

Ah man, this is gold

harryjosiegiles.medium.com/wages-for-transition-dce2b246b9b7

As is this classic

www.google.com/amp/s/edinburghath.tumblr.com/post/163521055802/trans-health-manifesto/amp

I totally agree with this, though.

I’d find this stuff funny if it wasn’t written/ acted on by people bigger and more aggresdive than me, with a grudge against women, in a society that readily finds excuses for violence against women ….

There are already initiatives like London’s Outside Project, running an LGBTIQ+ refuge

This I could get behind- seperate service provision away from womens shelters.
Fighting for healthcare when some of the surgeries actually damage a healthy body should always have heavy gatekeeping I think, for the good of the patient.
There can be family rifts for LGBT teenagers which can result in homelessness, yes, campaign for emergency housing for that group.

Ultimately, trans liberation isn’t possible without Black liberation, decolonisation, women’s liberation, disabled liberation, class struggle, and so on. That’s not just because trans people are also Black, colonised, women, disabled and working class, but because the systems that oppress trans people are also the systems of white supremacy, imperialism, cisheteropatriarchy, abled supremacy and capitalism
.......parklife!

We demand the immediate end to the occupation of Indigenous land and the theft of resources, and we demand reparations to nourish the sur-thrivance of all whose genders and transitions are resurging against settler-colonisation.

Word salad.

I can't see how trans people will get the resources and support they need if 'trans' continues to mean anyone from a post-op transsexual with diagnosed dysphoria to a bearded freemason who likes the pronoun 'they'.

The basis of good outcomes has to start with good data, surely. And to get good data - on medical issues; mental health; income; career prospects - transsexuals would be better off taking back the word trans from people who have little in common with them. Ironically, what trans people need is exactly what is said to be the cardinal sin: gatekeeping.

In terms of resources needed, some of them will overlap with other groups. For example, dysphoric people may or may not go the transition route. Good longterm studies and open dialogue in the medical and psychiatric professions will help both dysphoric and trans people get good access to care and make the best decisions.

In terms of protection from discrimination, trans people and dysphoric people could find common cause with everyone else if it was about freedom from sex stereotypes.

So I'd say the first thing to do is to abandon 'No Debate'; the second thing is to insist on recognition as a coherent group with shared characteristics - ie dysphorics who have chosen to transition - third, get good dependable data; fourth, start working out what resources and protections you need to ensure good outcomes. The best policies are firmly based in reality, Stonewall has done trans people no good by insisting on denying reality.

I can't see how trans people will get the resources and support they need if 'trans' continues to mean anyone from a post-op transsexual with diagnosed dysphoria to a bearded freemason who likes the pronoun 'they'.

Yes to:

debate;
data;
dispositive evidence on outcomes.

The basis of good outcomes has to start with good data, surely. And to get good data - on medical issues; mental health; income; career prospects - transsexuals would be better off taking back the word trans from people who have little in common with them. Ironically, what trans people need is exactly what is said to be the cardinal sin: gatekeeping.

Yes. That all sounds good but if, in defending their own rights, male transsexuals want to build bridges with feminists and regain trust and goodwill, I think they need to make it very clear that they have no claims on our identity or our spaces - toilets included.

I also think it’s crucial that trans widows and children of trans parents have space to speak and be heard, and that’s not going to happen if the voices of their ex-partners and parents are given priority.

EmpressWitchDoesntBurn
I agree with all that. The only sustainable situation can be one in which everyone's needs are respected.

And that research on detransitioners is permitted

The problem is that researching anything negative challenges people who seem to only cope with cheerleading, they say that gathering evcience denies their right to exist. I have no idea what they mean by that.

Yes and it seems a really shortsighted view. If you want rights and progress for trans people, surely you would also want to avoid a situation where young people are transitioning and then regretting it because they felt railroaded into it or weren't mature enough to make a decision, and perhaps were not really trans? You wouldn't want them taking up valuable resources and ending up unhappy, surely? And you wouldn't want non-trans people to be able to abuse self-ID so that male predators can do things like identifying themselves into women's wards, changing rooms and prisons. Surely that would be dangerous for transwomen too? So why would you want it?

It's as if this is not about finding sensible, workable solutions - it's about being right in a dogmatic, single-minded way that does not allow any concessions - even if that harms trans people.

Yes. That all sounds good but if, in defending their own rights, male transsexuals want to build bridges with feminists and regain trust and goodwill, I think they need to make it very clear that they have no claims on our identity or our spaces - toilets included.

I also think it’s crucial that trans widows and children of trans parents have space to speak and be heard, and that’s not going to happen if the voices of their ex-partners and parents are given priority.

Completely agree.

@TheGlassBlowersDaughter

It's interesting to read the view from the other side no matter how mistaken may be on the background of feminist organisers, etc.

I don't want to upload them here as well but I've just posted a critique of Sex Matters' letter on this thread that has (allegedly) been sent to >100 Uni Vice Chancellors and gathered some "lovely responses."

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4257620-Organisations-Leaving-Stonewall-The-List?msgid=108055357

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4257620-Organisations-Leaving-Stonewall-The-List?msgid=108055578

The critique is quite the insight.