Libby Purves in the Times today

[ErrolTheDragon]

Unsurprisingly, as someone who has written books on being a mother, she has some pertinent words to add to the current debate.

I'm not sure if it was this column or something else DH has read in the papers which made his first words to me this morning about 'physical gestators'. He's always, as a rational bloke, been aligned with GC views, but this phrase - which as he says, sounds like something in a biochemical plant - has truly appalled him

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/stonewalls-word-policing-only-breeds-more-hate-fxg6hmnfs?shareToken=8d6db39b9fd0e13e24458aab431b34c6

On one hand, linguistically, either the word mother purely means "person who has given birth", or it also has additional connotations (being maternal, feminine or something, I don't really know). I can see why people who don't want those connotations want to remove it, and equally I assume that's why people who do want those connotations are objecting to the removal of the word, so they're kind of in agreement in one respect?

On the other hand, it's denying adoptive parents the experience of being a "mother", so really, fuck that. It's exclusionary and insulting. Adoptive mothers are mothers!

Mother has two meanings1 the person who gives birth2 the female person who mothers the child . So adoptive parents are mothers and fathers.

But can’t the word ‘mother’ cover both of those aspects @CardinalLolzy. As it always has done.

I don’t think mother must equal femininity but it does mean the female guardian/carer of a child. Another thought, is this change in language also to desensitise us from the horrors of using surrogates?

@334bu

Mother has two meanings1 the person who gives birth2 the female person who mothers the child . So adoptive parents are mothers and fathers.

But what's the definition of "mother" used in (2)? It's circular!

Erm. No it isn’t.

Excellent article, thank you for sharing it here ErrolTheDragon

@AgnesNaismith

But can’t the word ‘mother’ cover both of those aspects *@CardinalLolzy*. As it always has done.

I don’t think mother must equal femininity but it does mean the female guardian/carer of a child. Another thought, is this change in language also to desensitise us from the horrors of using surrogates?

Yes, that's what i said. If it has an additional meaning then I can see why people who only want to be described as the birthing person but not the female guardian want to have a different word. I don't agree that this is the way to do it at all though but there is a logic there.

How about just ‘parent’?

@AgnesNaismith

Erm. No it isn’t.

You can't use the word you're defining in the definition of that word. It's the same as "a woman is anyone who feels like a woman". Replace the word mother with xyz. Xyz: (2) the female person who xyzs the child.

You're no closer to understanding what xyz actually means there.

Perhaps the word within the definition should be "parent" and the pp got it wrong.

This is interesting on the word Mother

From @AdoptionUK

@stonewalluk your laudable drive for workplace equality has a major downside for thousands of women who didn't give birth but are mothers by adoption, many of whom are LGBTQ+. Let’s get your Workplace Equality Index right for everyone.

Good to hear another voice on this, and an articulate and no-nonsense one at that. She’s an excellent writer.

As far as I'm aware, from this discussion before and from what R0wantrees said, the word mother has legal implications. Which is why when a surrogate gives birth, the child has to subsequently go through a legal adoption. The mother, i.e. the person giving birth, has instant and immediate legal responsibility for that child, until established otherwise.

Apparently the word and concept of mother is written into legislation, in the children's act, etc, and legally interwoven all over the place.

It's not just a word.

On one hand, linguistically, either the word mother purely means "person who has given birth", or it also has additional connotations (being maternal, feminine or something, I don't really know)
Not really, the word mother simply means "person who mothers".

The reason why stonewall want to erase the word "mother" from anything to do with parenting is exactly the same reason they want to remove the word "woman" from anything to do with female specific healthcare. To SW, these words can only be acceptable when used in the vaguest of ways, or in porn.

There's a gender Ideology myth, I think it's number 20 the relates to this comment
On the other hand, it's denying adoptive parents the experience of being a "mother", so really, fuck that. It's exclusionary and insulting. Adoptive mothers are mothers!

No one is saying adoptive parents aren't real parents (and the debate around this has been open since forever, and last time I checked no one has been sent rape or death threats for holding the opinion that adoptive parents aren't the same as biological parents...)

Seeing this outflow of comment and the tide of withdrawals from the champions scheme really brings home how magnificent JKR and JT have been. To have stuck their heads above the parapet (in JT’s case, repeatedly) when so many were avoiding even asking questions, took real guts.

Please let the next turnaround be from the Good Law Project.

Anyway....

SW have a long way to go if they're going to try convincing everyone that the word mother is an irrelevance, to be erased, or is inherently offensive to T people, or is only necessary in the most vague indeterminate context or in porn.

A mother is a female parent

There is a legal fiction that adoptive mothers are placed on birth certificates but no adoptive mothers believe they really gave birth.

@Datun

As far as I'm aware, from this discussion before and from what R0wantrees said, the word mother has legal implications. Which is why when a surrogate gives birth, the child has to subsequently go through a legal adoption. The mother, i.e. the person giving birth, has instant and immediate legal responsibility for that child, until established otherwise.

Apparently the word and concept of mother is written into legislation, in the children's act, etc, and legally interwoven all over the place.

It's not just a word.

Yes, i think this is the important focus, thanks

Not really, the word mother simply means "person who mothers".

The amount of noise this board (rightly) makes about circular definitions!! I'm giving up now!

No one is saying adoptive parents aren't real parents

Not sure what your argument is, sorry... I'm saying, by them claiming that "mother" and "birthing parent" are interchangeable, they are saying adoptive female parents can't be defined as "mother".
No concept of "real" or otherwise, just whether mother means and only means birthing parent. As per the AdoptionUK tweet above.

@GNCQ

Anyway....

SW have a long way to go if they're going to try convincing everyone that the word mother is an irrelevance, to be erased, or is inherently offensive to T people, or is only necessary in the most vague indeterminate context or in porn.

But this is what some activists are pushing for, a severance of the links between parents and children. A few weeks ago The Guardian published a piece about 'Hannah', a Roblox gamer. The whole piece was a massive safeguarding fail, cheerleading the way a young boy had been tutored into transition by strangers online, his real mother taking a back seat (real father not mentioned), and then describing how 'Hannah' was now becoming an alternative 'mother' to other young 'eggs' online. The freelancer who wrote the piece did another for Kinfolk titled 'Parental Control' - surprise, he's not in favour of it.

@zanahoria

A mother is a female parent

There is a legal fiction that adoptive mothers are placed on birth certificates but no adoptive mothers believe they really gave birth.

Actually that's not correct.

My DDs have short birth certificates just confirming their names and where they were born.
But they also have longer Adoption register certificates naming us as their parents. But the word Adoption at the top makes it very clear we aren't their birth parents.

Adoption gives us all the legal rights and responsibilities, but there is no 'legal fiction' involved.

Doesn’t mother in the second instance mean female primary caregiver? That would cover adoptive mothers I think?

Or even just female parent!

Oh, and too damn right I'm a mother.
I wouldn't have gone through what I have for the last 6 years if I wasn't.

Love Libby Purves. Her books were a sane and sensible friend during the early years of motherhood.