Article on Shamima Begum

[ArabellaScott]

Interesting read in the Times.

Discussing culpability, rehabilitation and empathy, via a creative writing workshop run in the camp Shamima Begum is held in.The workshop was run by a Kurdish woman:

' The 29-year-old activist is a member of the Kurdish Women’s Movement, whose revolutionary ideology espouses the necessity of emancipating women as a way of recalibrating society. From this perspective, Evdike regarded the internees as being in need of her help, as victims of an extremist patriarchal society that had allowed women little personal choice, confining them to the roles of housewives and child breeders.

Yet Evdike was also revolted by her own experiences of the war with Isis.'

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/d7c55aca-c2e7-11eb-a26e-4c086490cfe1?shareToken=ae4b283c36582267ebd13481836e279e

I agree she is our problem, and if she manages to make it back to the UK she should be tried under terrorism laws. Not one penny of taxpayer money should be spent getting her back though.

By the way, for those saying there is an undertone of racism - I am from the Middle East and had a Muslim upbringing. I am immensely grateful to this country for taking my family in and giving us opportunities we wouldn’t have had elsewhere, particularly for me growing up as a girl. It is unfathomable to me that you could grow up here, with all the privilege that includes, and seek to actively harm this country and identify with those terrorists, particularly their deep and visceral hatred of women. This is why I judge her so harshly.

No matter what she did it doesn't change the fact that she's our responsibility. Foisting our terrorists off onto others is pretty despicable.

The grooming network is extremely effective, especially for young people. They latch on to vulnerable and impressionable people. They actively seek them out.
Apart from all that, though; she is British and therefore a British problem. Foisting her off on Syria (or anywhere else) is not really on- they have enough problems to deal with without these scumbags from all corners of the world being kept there indefinitely as well.

@Passionfruitpizza

No matter what she did it doesn't change the fact that she's our responsibility. Foisting our terrorists off onto others is pretty despicable.

And counter productive. At the moment there is a huge power vacuum in Syria. Another murderous dictatorship could easily seize power. And they have foreign radicalised fighters sitting in camps waiting. Just ripe to be told "This is what the West does to Muslims". (which is not true, but is how grooming works)

@HermioneWeasley

I agree she is our problem, and if she manages to make it back to the UK she should be tried under terrorism laws. Not one penny of taxpayer money should be spent getting her back though.

By the way, for those saying there is an undertone of racism - I am from the Middle East and had a Muslim upbringing. I am immensely grateful to this country for taking my family in and giving us opportunities we wouldn’t have had elsewhere, particularly for me growing up as a girl. It is unfathomable to me that you could grow up here, with all the privilege that includes, and seek to actively harm this country and identify with those terrorists, particularly their deep and visceral hatred of women. This is why I judge her so harshly.

Just because it is unfathomable to you, it doesn’t mean it’s not true. If she had been white this would have played out very differently and I imagine we would have been far more willing to accept the ‘grooming’ argument.

She was a child but as an adult she has not shown remorse.

I also wonder if those saying 'she is our problem and should be dealt with here' say the same about immigrants to the uk? Should they be extradited to countries of birth if they commit offences here?

I have no way of judging whether she's remorseful. I can't think of anything she can do or say that would convince me either way. But, if I'm going to question whether a child is capable of giving informed consent to some medical procedures - and I do - then I think it's equally reasonable to question whether they're capable of understanding concepts such as treason and renouncing citizenship.

Kind of cross post with Singing but I don't see it as being about compassion either. I think it's about consistency of thinking.

Oh I see Singing's post has been deleted. Interesting. Well my point was pretty similar.

What I’m confused about is how did she manage to leave the country? If she was underage, was she allowed to board the plane on her own? I thought that wasn’t allowed without adult supervision.

Sisters passport and she sold jewellery that I think she pinched from her family.

So she wouldn't have considered old enough to board a plane by herself? I didn't realise that. And yet old enough to understand the meaning of renouncing your citizenship?

Why was my post deleted? Do I get to find out? I can't think of anything in it that was controversial...

I only saw it very briefly Singing and I didn't notice anything, but it might have been down to the use of individual words. I think if you contact MNHQ they will usually explain.

Just noting that Isis soldiers have come back to the UK, with far less discussion.

Curious why Begum might seem to be being held to a higher standard than men who may have actually killed people?

Is she the only person to have had her citizenship revoked over this issue, are there others?

www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/isis-british-jihadis-return-uk-iraq-syria-report-islamic-state-fighters-europe-threat-debate-terror-attacks-a8017811.html

www.theguardian.com/world/2019/oct/25/uk-government-considered-repatriation-of-british-isis-members-shamima-begum

So many people picking and choosing bits that suit them.

Under international law the British had no right to take away her citizenship.

She left when she was under age.

This is not about someone committing a crime in another country. This is about displaced persons resulting from war.

She should be repatriated.

And it is so typical of the english attitude that it is always up to everyone else to clear up our mess.

Just like we created the displacement of millions of Palestinians and then expect neighbouging countries to help them suvive in refugee camps for over 70s years.

And like Palestine having stuck our over priviledged white european fingers into a situation that was nothing to do with us, and made it worse, we then ran away and left others to clear up the mess.

What a shining example of a "christian" country.

Nobody is talking about exonerating. She should face trial. That is the correct procedure. As other european countries are doing

It is irrelevant what you think about her and her politics.

As I say thanks to the blatant right wing nonsense of the mainstream media in this country there really are people who seem to think others should abide by the law but we shouldn't.

Just like Boris Johnson. We now have to get the Supreme Court to tell our Prime Minister what is legitimate and what isnt because he thinks he can do what suits his view point. ie proroguing Parliament.

Or the children of the Windrush migrants, legitimately here as citizens and then the government, thinks it can trick and deceive them out of that right and deport them to a country they have never lived in.

And you can bet if she had been the misguided daughter of some nice white middle class parents there would be a huge uproar about how she should be "bought home" and no doubt there would be a tv series made about her.

Looking for "plausible" loopholds to deny her her rights is about as low as you can get.

Thanks @Floisme - I'll try and figure out how to do that. I am fairly newish here and have no idea what rule I transgressed.

A slightly different restatement of my deleted point: At 15 your brain is not fully developed. It doesn't matter how intelligent you are, you are naturally not going to be able to fully understand all the long-term consequences. She deserves our compassion and help.

This is the same reason I oppose the idea of puberty blockers and trans surgery for children of the same age, no matter how certain they are that they understand the consequences and really want it.

stumbled this is not correct "Under international law the British had no right to take away her citizenship." She is not like most of us on the thread with one passport, one country where we have a right to citizenship - UK. She has the Bangladeshi right which is why she and others with the 2 citzenships can under international law lose one as it does not leave them stateless. She has lost her English court litigation so far including the recent Supreme Court decision (God knows how much that has cost the British tax payer and mumsnetters so far) which held she did not have a right to be brought back to the UK to continue her fight and which held she was a danger to the country. the Supreme Court 2021 summary is shorter than the judgment and easier to read:

www.supremecourt.uk/cases/docs/uksc-2020-0156-press-summary.pdf

She was a child
But well beyond the age of criminal responsibility.

Criminal responsibility wasn't my point. I'm not saying she shouldn't face justice.

The article notes that it's not just up to the UK if she is repatriated

I find some of the comments on here very upsetting. I agree completely with stumbledin.

Think of the number of times we've talked on here about how vulnerable teenage girls are, both to sexual predators and to people telling them they should mutilate their bodies to become the opposite sex. Teenage brains are not fully developed. We know that.

My heart goes out to Shamima Begum. She came under some very bad influences, and she was foolish, but so frankly are a lot of 15 year olds. She has had three babies, much too young, and all have died. I very much doubt she is a threat to anyone. Of course we should have her back, not least because she is our responsibility.

The irony is we do have dangerous Islamist terrorists in the UK. Most of them are men. Making a huge fuss about this young woman is a deflection from the real problem we have of homegrown terrorism.

[quote Xenia]stumbled this is not correct "Under international law the British had no right to take away her citizenship." She is not like most of us on the thread with one passport, one country where we have a right to citizenship - UK. She has the Bangladeshi right which is why she and others with the 2 citzenships can under international law lose one as it does not leave them stateless. She has lost her English court litigation so far including the recent Supreme Court decision (God knows how much that has cost the British tax payer and mumsnetters so far) which held she did not have a right to be brought back to the UK to continue her fight and which held she was a danger to the country. the Supreme Court 2021 summary is shorter than the judgment and easier to read:

www.supremecourt.uk/cases/docs/uksc-2020-0156-press-summary.pdf[/quote]
Bangladesh is denying her having citizenship (understandably; they won't want her anyway).
Which means, legally she only has British citizenship. We can't force another country to give or confirm citizenship. Imagine the outrage if the situation was reversed.

There was a suggestion she might have Dutch citizenship via her husband but the Dutch have refused to repatriate him or his family.