Meet the Other Phone. Flexible and made to last.

Meet the Other Phone.
Flexible and made to last.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Raising Stonewall with employer, how???

28 replies

Hazycoffee · 05/06/2021 09:27

NC for this but been on MN for years.

First of all, I want to say a MASSIVE thanks to all the amazing posters in the Feminism Board here who who not only have helped me understand the issues we’re facing, info which, apart from Glinner’s website, isn’t readily available but have left me full of admiration - batting out FOIs which have made such a difference recently.

Here’s my dilemma. I’ve never had a problem speaking up and speaking my mind at work. But I am at a company on the Stonewall Equality Index and my god have they been drinking the Stonewall KoolAid like crazy over the past few years. Not surprising as the diversity manager is ex-Stonewall. I feel the recent press coverage gives me a way now to raise my concerns but the diversity manager will just bat them away and I’m not big and important enough for them to do otherwise. Plus, the organisation has also been doing lots recently in other areas, eg addressing women adversely impacted by covid, Black Lives Matter etc. So I know the response will be that they address all inequality. But doing nothing doesn’t feel like an option now as I think all of these corporate organisations signing up to the Index gives credence to its bullshit.

There is a great HR manager who I think will listen to my concerns but any ideas on what arguments I should raise? For example, is it correct to say gender is not a protected characteristic under the Equality Act? Saying that makes me sound anti-trans though ??

Has anyone successfully got this conversation started at work?

OP posts:
OhHolyJesus · 05/06/2021 09:39

I would check your HR policies OP, and if they put gender as a protected characteristic you could quietly and gently point out to HR that this is incorrect and the law says it is sex.

That could be a starting point.

If you wanted to point out Stonewall has been wrong and has misrepresented the law you could use the threads about Stonewall on this board to gather together your points and email them and ask for a meeting.

I would look at what they do for disabled or neuro-diverse employees and make a comparison between different minorities not getting equal representations/activities/recognition/funding etc.

OhHolyJesus · 05/06/2021 09:40

As said elsewhere, companies will now begin to be concerned about reputational damage due to the association with SW as not only is the diversity champion scheme not fit for purpose it is a liability.

SudokuMania · 05/06/2021 09:42

Start referring to Stonewall as the controversial lobbying group.

MishyJDI · 05/06/2021 09:47

@Hazycoffee

NC for this but been on MN for years.

First of all, I want to say a MASSIVE thanks to all the amazing posters in the Feminism Board here who who not only have helped me understand the issues we’re facing, info which, apart from Glinner’s website, isn’t readily available but have left me full of admiration - batting out FOIs which have made such a difference recently.

Here’s my dilemma. I’ve never had a problem speaking up and speaking my mind at work. But I am at a company on the Stonewall Equality Index and my god have they been drinking the Stonewall KoolAid like crazy over the past few years. Not surprising as the diversity manager is ex-Stonewall. I feel the recent press coverage gives me a way now to raise my concerns but the diversity manager will just bat them away and I’m not big and important enough for them to do otherwise. Plus, the organisation has also been doing lots recently in other areas, eg addressing women adversely impacted by covid, Black Lives Matter etc. So I know the response will be that they address all inequality. But doing nothing doesn’t feel like an option now as I think all of these corporate organisations signing up to the Index gives credence to its bullshit.

There is a great HR manager who I think will listen to my concerns but any ideas on what arguments I should raise? For example, is it correct to say gender is not a protected characteristic under the Equality Act? Saying that makes me sound anti-trans though ??

Has anyone successfully got this conversation started at work?

Just wondering why you feel the need to? Is there a load of out and proud transwomen invading your work bathroom that makes you feel uncomfortable and unsafe? Why seek to make other people's lives worse if it doesn't impact you?

As to the question, yes gender is not protected, but those undergoing gender reassignment are, and in practicality trying to argue the toss over those two can make you come across pedantic and non-equality friendly to your employer as you point out. Depends how passionate you are over the issue.

If your employer has a diversity HR manager, then this will be a tricky journey and conversation, but if you feel it's something you are duty bound to do as trans people are having such a big impact on your life, then go for it. There are many threads here where people have been able to raise the challenges against stonewall's interpretation of the act, and Liz Truss and the EHRC public comments. Many also work in HR, so I'm sure someone will be able to come along and help.

Good luck!

Erikrie · 05/06/2021 09:49

Start referring to Stonewall as the controversial lobbying group.

Yes definitely this. Along with 'have you seen the news recently? They've been misrepresenting the law for years 😱

OneEpisode · 05/06/2021 09:49

If you are at a large company, is there an operational risk function? The Uni of Essex report was clear that using stonewall exposed that organisation to risk, so you could report this to your company?

ArabellaScott · 05/06/2021 09:51

Stonewall ARE controversial, I don't think anyone can really deny that, given the recent withdrawal of so many organisations/departments, EHRC and Liz Truss' comments.

I would start by acknowledging the good work your company does.

is it correct to say gender is not a protected characteristic under the Equality Act

Yes. 'Sex' is a protected characteristic, 'gender reassignment' is a pc. 'Gender' is meaningless.

Some people seem keen to say this is just 'semantics' and it's 'only words'.

If we are discussing law and legislation, words are quite important.

ArabellaScott · 05/06/2021 09:51

Plus, if it doesn't even matter what you say, nobody will object to 'sex' being the pc, rather than 'gender'.

eurochick · 05/06/2021 09:53

As I put on another thread, I raised it recently. I couched it in terms of reputational risk for the organisation and concern about associating ourselves with what seems to be becoming a "toxic" brand. I also mentioned that reputable organisations such a EHRC had not renewed membership and pointed them to some articles in the broadsheets.

YouSetTheTone · 05/06/2021 10:07

Just wondering why you feel the need to? Is there a load of out and proud transwomen invading your work bathroom that makes you feel uncomfortable and unsafe? Why seek to make other people's lives worse if it doesn't impact you?

It does impact women on both micro and macro levels if they don’t have access to single sex bathrooms. The op might, for example, have colleagues who are women with religious beliefs who feel unable to use that space.
Any out and proud transwomen can use the male bathroom, I’m sure in this day and age with all the good work that Stonewall have done the other men in there will be welcoming and accepting. I suspect they will be liable to claims of discrimination if not.

Attempting to shame women who are seeking clarity on the Equality Act and how it is enforced in the work place is belittling and misogynist.

Outhere · 05/06/2021 10:13

I've just done this myself. I had an excellent starting point handed to me on a plate though as I'd just had my two yearly Stonewall indoctrination session. I made a note of each point in the training that was legally wrong and bullet pointed them as feedback. At the end I suggested they read the Reindorf report (all of the other Stonewall stuff hadn't kicked off yet at that point).

I then wrote to my MP explaining what I had done and advised that I felt able to do so since the EHRC had stated that being GC should be considered a protected belief. I have written to him a few times about various issues to do with gender, and we are a huge local employer (local govt). I am now writing to the head of the organisation and will include some of the more recent info too.

Previously I've kept my head down, I absolutely cannot afford to lose my job but the cornerstone of my work is safeguarding and this nonsense leaves us in serious breach of even basic safeguarding. So, that's where I'm at; I've kept to the facts and steered well clear of any emotion or personal feelings with the training feedback I gave.

ArabellaScott · 05/06/2021 10:34

Fantastic, Outhere. Well done for handling it so professionally.

lalamo · 05/06/2021 10:41

I've done it OP. I wrote to our director last week expressing worry about our affiliation with Stonewall. Got a letter back to confirm we are not renewing our subs. I work for a world famous organisation so I hope this helps push others to disassociate.

sashh · 05/06/2021 11:06

For example, is it correct to say gender is not a protected characteristic under the Equality Act? Saying that makes me sound anti-trans though ??

No it doesn't it makes you know what the law is.

How about coming from the point of view of obeying the law whilst being open and inclusive?

That some discrimination is legal both in the UK and other countries eg deaf people cannot train as pilots, people with some digestive conditions cannot be air traffic control. Both of these are to ensure the safety of others.

I'm disabled and was a teacher, I, obviously had to use a lift, if there were staff lifts there was no problem but if it was student and staff lifts I was told to never go in one with a student, 2 or more student - no problem, 2 or more staff, again no problem, this protected me and the student from any allegations.

So the law says you have to have male and female toilets. To be inclusive you may wish to have a designated 'gender neutral toilet' often this will be the disabled toilet because trans people can have disabilities.

What you can't do is have just male and gender neutral. This is not what Stonewall advise so there is a class there between the law and the advice.

Erikrie · 05/06/2021 11:18

Just wondering why you feel the need to? Is there a load of out and proud transwomen invading your work bathroom that makes you feel uncomfortable and unsafe? Why seek to make other people's lives worse if it doesn't impact you?

Ahh, the #ArmitageShanksLaw has been wheeled out.

Misrepresenting the equality Act is not just about toilets. As I'm sure you know. But if you don't, then there's plenty of information about it at your fingertips.

EmbarrassingAdmissions · 05/06/2021 11:38

Ahh, the #ArmitageShanksLaw has been wheeled out.

Notes this and above "controversial lobby group" as useful phrases.

Erikrie · 05/06/2021 11:42

Notes this and above "controversial lobby group" as useful phrases.

*Credit to TinselAngel for coining the phrase.

Hazycoffee · 05/06/2021 11:45

Thanks for the replies. I’m not directly impacted, but doesn’t mean I can’t be uneasy with the affiliation, that’s why I wasn’t sure how to frame my objection. I’ll go for risk of reputation.

OP posts:
Leafstamp · 05/06/2021 12:46

Another angle is why does an organisation pay to be lobbied at?

Or, to quote another poster on the ofsted thread:

Seems like companies and schools can save themselves a whole stack of money by ditching Stonewall and just getting on with things using their own common sense and decency and existing laws. With the added bonus of not getting sued in the future by women or kids they've damaged.

Wins all round.

NB the management time taken to jump through the Stonewall hoops, not just the subscription fee.

UppityPuppity · 05/06/2021 13:17

Just wondering why you feel the need to? Is there a load of out and proud transwomen invading your work bathroom that makes you feel uncomfortable and unsafe? Why seek to make other people's lives worse if it doesn't impact you?

Oh how completely predictable. Such patronising and dismissive tones to gaslight the rights of others away. How DARE a woman try to ensure that her workplace is complaint with equality law that ensures the rights of women.

Well done OP.

Erikrie · 05/06/2021 13:53

Oh how completely predictable. Such patronising and dismissive tones to gaslight the rights of others away. How DARE a woman try to ensure that her workplace is complaint with equality law that ensures the rights of women.

I know. It doesn't matter anymore though. The house of cards is utterly tumbling. Everyone out there in the real world can see it. There's so many conversations happening amongst people who didn't previously know. This madness is pretty much over. Next task is to sweep up the damage.

highame · 05/06/2021 15:58

@lalamo

I've done it OP. I wrote to our director last week expressing worry about our affiliation with Stonewall. Got a letter back to confirm we are not renewing our subs. I work for a world famous organisation so I hope this helps push others to disassociate.
This is really excellent Flowers
Outhere · 21/06/2021 16:19

Just thought I'd pop back here with an update for those who may be considering contacting their employers about Stonewall and/or policies re: gender/sex. I have written to a few people, and given direct feedback on a dire training session that I had to endure (no response from that yet). The leader of the organisation has responded to me though. I did nearly vomit a little when I clocked it in my inbox. However, the response was excellent. They are already looking at the relationship between the organisation and Stonewall, and are looking through policies and training. They advised that it is a massive task (huge LA) so it may take some time, but it is firmly on their radar and there is a lot to undo. I don't think my email was a catalyst for much, but they are going to look at the training module which I highlighted as a particular concern. I had kept my email very factual, despite wanting to add some personal elements and questions, and I'm happy to share it if it would help anyone wanting to do similar.

RoyalAcademyOfFarts · 21/06/2021 16:32

@Outhere

I’d be really interested in seeing how you’ve phrased things.

I’m about to leave my job for a new one, and my current manager has specifically asked me for some advice and my perspective on future training priorities and the various types of accreditation we go for as an organisation. I’d like to raise some of the issues with Stonewall (I made notes on an unimaginably awful training session last month, but haven’t yet shared them).

It would be tremendously helpful to see how others are broaching this with their employers.

Outhere · 21/06/2021 20:55

Here you go, it's formatted across a bit funny so sorry about that. It's a bit 'I'm not a meany I promise' but tbf, I did need to drive that home due to the nature of my job. It's not perfect by any means but sometimes I think it's helpful for us to be sharing these things, if only to support with having the confidence to actually do it!

Dear,

(Starts with some identifying stuff). I am an employee of (), having worked as a Social Worker for the last years. I have been debating whether to contact you as I do not wish to jeopardise my employment but recent events have convinced me that it is the right thing to do. I have also been in correspondence with my MP, (), and he advised that it would be appropriate to contact you directly.

I will start by stating that I am passionate about social justice and do not condone any form of discrimination, this is part and parcel of my everyday work. I am however, becoming increasingly concerned about () relationship with Stonewall and the impact this is having on policy and by consequence staff. I am unsure whether you are aware of the recent report commissioned by The University of Essex which explored two occasions of the ‘deplatforming’ of women guest speakers because of allegations of ‘transphobia’. The report, written by Akua Reindorf (Barrister, specialising in Discrimination Law), concluded that the University was unlawful in its approach and they issued a public apology to the two women who were involved. Akua also identified various areas in which Stonewall were potentially misrepresenting the law to the University and urged the University to reconsider their relationship with Stonewall. The University is, as is (), part of the Stonewall Diversity Champions scheme, which involves paying Stonewall a yearly membership fee. In return they will check the members policies, training and other documents and offer guidance as to how they can make sure their wording is inclusive and ‘anti discriminatory’ in terms of LBGT+. They do this based on their understanding of the law, and as Akua astutely advises ‘the law as Stonewall would prefer it to be, rather than what it is’. She also advises that there may be a case for indirect sex discrimination due to more women being disproportionately affected by the issues. Interestingly, the Equality and Human Rights Commission have recently announced their withdrawal from the scheme (amongst many others at the time of writing). The EHRC have also recently intervened in an employment tribunal to state that ‘gender critical beliefs’ should be considered to be a protected belief under the Equality Act. In short, someone who holds gender critical beliefs is someone who believes that there are only two sexes and that sex is immutable. The judgment for this case has now been published and the Judge also agreed that belief in the immutability of sex should be considered a protected belief under the Equality Act 2010.

In terms of (), I am concerned about the legal consequences of continuing with Stonewall and the impact they may be having. Recently I have completed my mandatory training provided by () with regards to discrimination. This came in two sections and was an online training session. The first section covered the majority of the protected characteristics, the second solely concentrated on transgender issues. I found this second section particularly problematic due to its content. Again I must stress that I believe that everyone should be treated with dignity and respect; no one should be discriminated against due to any protected characteristic. The training however, was inaccurate in its representation of the law, including citing ‘gender identity’ as the protected characteristic (it’s gender reassignment). I wrote a list of the various inaccuracies and problems with the training and have fed this back to (*). Whilst I am well read on this topic, I am aware that the vast majority of staff will not be and will take the training at face value.

() job adverts also incorrectly cite the protected characteristic of sex, stating instead ‘gender’, and ‘gender identity’ instead of gender reassignment. Whilst this may appear like semantics, the law is very clear and institutions cannot change the wording of legislation. Again I am concerned as to just how far () has been permeated by Stonewall and their understanding of the law.

It has taken a lot of courage (and failed attempts!) to write this email due to the number of women who have experienced negative consequences for speaking out about these issues. I am more than happy to discuss my concerns further with you and hope that you take my concerns in the spirit that they are intended: to ensure that (*) is following legislation as it should be, and not as Stonewall would like it to be.

Yours Sincerely,