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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Police forces admitting they would record a male rapist as 'female' if that is how they self identify

46 replies

highame · 31/05/2021 06:22

twitter.com/fairplaywomen/status/1399049570110291969

From Fair Play for Women FOI's and all coming from the College of Policing who seem to make it up as they go along. How can they be accountable and impartial of they are in thrall to Stonewall. I would expect Police and Crime Commissioners should be involved in this.

If we have the Police making it up as they go along and the courts Equal treatment Bench book, we don't stand a chance.

OP posts:
AlfonsoTheMango · 31/05/2021 12:29

Dismaying.

EmbarrassingAdmissions · 31/05/2021 12:53

As we reported a month ago, April saw several court trials in the UK of males who identify as women. In at least two of the cases, the defendants, both paedophiles, avoided jail because the judge expressed sympathy for them due to their ‘gender identity’ issues.

Since that article was written, it’s emerged that there were at least two more trials in April involving males in which the media mostly uses female pronouns. And yet again, child abuse is the recurring theme.*

At the end of April, ‘Marcia‘ Walker was released from jail despite attacking a prison officer and other acts of violence while in jail, and for being found in possession of pictures of naked children. Marcia said the violence was partly due to his gender dysphoria and the judge, while admitting he was “taking a chance”, actually released him. Walker, who had wanted to be moved to a women’s prison, was originally jailed for raping a four-year-old girl.

grahamlinehan.substack.com/p/stonewalls-easy-marks

AlfonsoTheMango · 31/05/2021 12:58

Horrible.

Resilience · 31/05/2021 15:46

I don't think the majority of police officers are misogynists. They are, however, drawn from the same society as the rest of us, where many sexist and misogynistic attitudes are culturally ingrained even in our Western, largely progressive society. It's therefore no surprise that the law, which in the main has been written by men, doesn't protect women as it should. It's not so much that the police are institutionally sexist as it is that society is institutionally sexist and the police simply reflect that.

Britain is generally a liberal and tolerant country. As equality and diversity issues have become greater understood and we've recognised what we're losing out on by not being inclusive, publicly funded bodies are rightly seeking to make changes. The trouble is that they're monoliths and funding for these issues is minimal. Therefore, senior leaders understandably look to the easiest solutions. Stonewall provided them with one in a way that women's rights groups have never been able to. Stonewall provided a single ideological strand with practical solutions and template workplace policies. No wonder it was seen as an easy route to demonstrating a commitment to diversity. Women's rights, however, doesn't have that cohesion - there is significant disagreement between feminists on certain subject matters and there are no 'insert name here' easy-to-implement policies. Most bodies have tried to progress women's rights through a collective of different and disparate initiatives drawn from different sources. Therefore it never achieves the same momentum as something like Stonewall.

There's also the small matter that because women make up 51% of the population and increasingly significant proprtions of the workforce, any real change is going to be expensive and demand significant effort, some of which may prove controversial and difficult. Most bosses continue to see the LGBTQ+ issues as somewhat niche, unlikely to impact on many people and therefore an easy win. Hence it gets pushed through quickly. Changing signs to gender neutral is a whole lot easier than building more disabled loos or rewriting your maternity leave policy for example.

I don't think the police (or any other public body) will change their current stance until they are either provided with evidence that they are losing public confidence because of their approach, or they are legally challenged on their impartiality and public sector equality duty to encourage good relations between different groups. Another legal challenge may be that they are supposed to record legally defined protected characteristics not gender identity. It would be interesting to see what happens in that case, but I'm sure the original intention was meant to be one of inclusivity rather than a deliberate attempt to obfuscate data. It could be argued they should have seen that coming, but again that comes down to most people initially believing *and in many cases still believing) this was a very niche issue which would have little impact.

Many police forces spend significant sums and training on tackling child sexual exploitation, rape, domestic abuse. Most officers genuinely want to tackle it. An increasing number of officers are rightly being dismissed because of poor behaviour towards women because the police are getting better. However, the reason progress is limited IMO is because what's really lacking is a feminist analysis of how society creates the opportunity for these crimes to arise in the first place. Applying that might mean shining a spotlight on our society and its ingrained sexism that governments of all colours might not yet be ready to acknowledge and tackle in any meaningful way though...

highame · 31/05/2021 16:42

It's not just the taxpayers money given to Stonewall, it's all the hours spent on trans diversity (forget the LGB) which could be spent on child abuse, rape, domestic violence and all the other crimes that affect women and that are languishing in the bottom of spreadsheets

OP posts:
UppityPuppity · 31/05/2021 16:44

Is there a list of all the police forces who do this/admitted it?

I’ll write to mine if they are included.

EmbarrassingAdmissions · 31/05/2021 17:07

@UppityPuppity

Is there a list of all the police forces who do this/admitted it?

I’ll write to mine if they are included.

The FPFW FOI exercise lists the responses from the forces that responded - the status is unknown for those who did not respond or would not answer specific questions.

fairplayforwomen.com/police_record_males_as_female/

UppityPuppity · 31/05/2021 17:15

Embarrassing Thanks.

Perhaps we should all write to our police crime commissioners (if you have one) to get an answer and formally state that if they do record male perpetrators/suspects as female (esp for rape) that they must stop as it is an abhorrence to victims, as well a gross distortion of crime statistics, undermines the judicial system and actively hinders the understanding of patterns of crime, which is needed to enable more effective prevention. They can bring it up to the chief constable etc.

After all - this is the sort of stuff which they were voted in for.

ErrolTheDragon · 31/05/2021 17:33

Surely it's not beyond the wit of police forces and other bodies to record sex accurately, and if necessary also record gender/preferred pronouns so that suspects (who must of course be treated as innocent unless proved guilty) can be treated with dignity and have no grounds for complaints of discriminatory treatment.

Of course, victims and other witnesses must never be compelled to call a rapist 'she'. They swear to tell the truth and should be allowed to do so.

AnyOldPrion · 31/05/2021 18:12

@Tibtom

It easier to remedy than that: the police should simply record sex.

Is there a similar push to ask whether they also identify as innocent?

Recording both sex and gender-reassignment status would be very useful. They could then assess the statistics and check whether the Swedish study, which demonstrated that men show the same criminal offending patterns (including violent crime) even after significant transition, is accurate.
AdHominemNonSequitur · 31/05/2021 18:18

@Tibtom

It easier to remedy than that: the police should simply record sex.

Is there a similar push to ask whether they also identify as innocent?

Well anti carceral feminism isn't that far off this.
JediGnot · 31/05/2021 18:40

@ArabellaScott

If transwomen say they can't use the men's toilets for fear of encountering men, this is understood immediately.

If women say they don't want males in the women's toilets for fear of encountering male bodied people, this is bigotry.

A male identifying as a woman is respected. And of course this male knows very well whose space he wants to be part of; choosing the women's space involves presuming the identity of all the women using it.

On the other hand, not only are women disallowed from identifying themselves (instead, we will be given the words to use when referring to ourselves - c*s, uterus-haver, person with a cervix, pregnant person), but we are strictly disallowed from identifying others, too.

Only one sex has the power to identify not only themselves, but everyone else, too.

It's not women.

"choosing the women's space involves presuming the identity of all the women using it."

It does and it doesn't... in my experience trans women identify as "women" in the sense of "we want to adopt outdated and dangerous stereotypes and to enjoy 'privileges' that women have, such as not being in the men's toilet". They DON'T indentify as women in the sense of "there is a group in society called 'women' and I share a bond with them all". I asked about this on reddit and was utterly shocked that, IIRC, not a single one felt that there was any bond between themselves as trans-women and other women, rather their identity was 100% personal and nothing to do with other women".

It is bad enough to claim to be a woman when you're male, but to be so explicit and outspoken that your "womanhood" is 100% personal and nothing to do with other women is just outrageous. It is like joining a union so that you get free legal advice when you're sacked, whilst campaigning against pay rises, equal pay, the right to strike and the right to form unions.

AnyOldPrion · 31/05/2021 19:08

their identity was 100% personal and nothing to do with other women

This sounds insecure and defensive, with perhaps an aggressive edge. I often have the feeling that what is felt is (in many cases) a forceful desire for womanhood, rather than any actual feeling of being one.

newrubylane · 31/05/2021 19:59

Can you imagine as a rape victim if this creeps into questioning:

Can you describe the person who raped you?

Yes, he-

(Interrupts) How do you know he was a man?

Well, he had a penis, so-

Did the perpetrator tell you what their pronouns were?

Well, no, but-

Well then, it might have been a woman. Perhaps you ought to refer to them as they until we've established the gender identity of the offender...

🙄🙄🙄

ArabellaScott · 31/05/2021 20:20

It does and it doesn't... in my experience trans women identify as "women" in the sense of "we want to adopt outdated and dangerous stereotypes and to enjoy 'privileges' that women have, such as not being in the men's toilet". They DON'T indentify as women in the sense of "there is a group in society called 'women' and I share a bond with them all".

Confused
MajesticWhine · 31/05/2021 22:49

Is it less about "feeling like a woman" and more about not wanting to be a man. Denying some of the male part of yourself? Which as a psychologist makes me want to think about denial and other primitive defence mechanisms. And the purpose of this psychologically - why is it so anxiety provoking to own your maleness?But no no we must not psychologise this we must be affirmative (slaps wrist).

Tibtom · 01/06/2021 09:57

why is it so anxiety provoking to own your maleness?

Because it wouldn't have gone unnoticed that you get a lighter sentence claiming gender issue.

Because they like presenting as a woman for reasons we are not allowed to talk about

Because it is control

WarOnWomen · 01/06/2021 10:21

Looks like my local police force records gender rather than sex. I would like to write to them but I don't have the brain power atm to come up with a coherent letter. Is there a template around that I can tweak?

EmbarrassingAdmissions · 01/06/2021 10:52

But no no we must not psychologise this we must be affirmative (slaps wrist)

Unless someone is a counsellor/psychologist working with a transwidow in which case the latter will be reprimanded and told that workplace policies do not permit abuse (eg, the preferred pronouns of the person who isn't present who is affirmation/validation even in absentia - but not the person in need of therapy who is in the room).

EyesOpening · 01/06/2021 11:57

I don’t understand how the different forces don’t all have to follow the same thing, which I would have thought came from the government/prior laws. Do they get to make up laws themselves?

FindTheTruth · 05/06/2021 22:22

Police forces admitting they would record a male rapist as 'female' if that is how they self identify.

What is rape? According to the law, only a man can commit rape (as the penetration has to be with a penis). Sexual crimes are about violence and power rather than desire and sexual attraction. Gender identity cannot and should not be conflated with sex on crime records. A male who claims to have personal conception of oneself as a woman who then rapes, is a liar - one could even argue that recording 'rapists as female is transphobic'. Police should record biological sex for all crimes.

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