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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Gender reassignment vs gender identity

96 replies

Uell · 29/05/2021 11:56

Would any of you wise women be able to spell out in the difference in simple terms please.

I feel in the times ahead it's going to be useful to be able to give examples of the difference.

I think I know but I'm not really able to articulate it clearly.

OP posts:
NecessaryScene1 · 31/05/2021 12:00

Right, so that's a predecessor to the EA2010, not the GRA2004.

And I note it still had the same lack of clarity about the comparator.

BlueLipstickRocks · 31/05/2021 12:17

Right, so that's a predecessor to the EA2010, not the GRA2004.

Not quite otherwise it wouldn't have been repealed when the GRA came out.

ChazsBrilliantAttitude · 31/05/2021 12:31

If we don’t have self ID which we don’t, then logically there has to be a distinction between gender identity and gender reassignment. Stating your gender identity is not sufficient to gain protection the Act because you must be engaging (or proposing to engage) in a process that manifests your “gender identity” in a way that is different to how it’s expressed now. You have to be going to reassign sex based attributes. If you are simply stating a gender identity you are not reassigning any characteristics nor are you proposing to do so.

BlueLipstickRocks · 31/05/2021 12:45

You have to be going to reassign

Why "going to"?

The magic phrase "I identify as" will simply be replaced with "I propose to" and nothing will change.

Intention is irrelevant - the only thing that matters is actions.

BlueLipstickRocks · 31/05/2021 12:48

If we don’t have self ID

We sort of do though.

You can essentially self id a change of sex on a passport for example.

EA2010 is self ID- GRA is not. However the majority of organisations have no interest in seperating GRC from non GRC.

In reality it's only the EA being used.

ChazsBrilliantAttitude · 31/05/2021 13:28

The law as it stands requires an intention to reassign but I don’t think you could legitimately argue the intention could subsist indefinitely without action. So at some point action would have to be taken.

Changing the sex markers on passports is problematic and I suspect post the census ruling will come under increasing scrutiny.

NecessaryScene1 · 31/05/2021 14:13

Not quite otherwise it wouldn't have been repealed when the GRA came out.

It wasn't - the Sex Discrimination Act, including the 1999 gender reassignment addition, was repealed when the EA2010 came out.

The GRA2004 slightly modified the Sex Discrimination Act.

www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2004/7/schedule/6/enacted

NecessaryScene1 · 31/05/2021 14:25

It's interesting to see how the law evolved actually.

By my reading 1999 made discrimination on the basis of gender reassignment illegal.

www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/1999/1102/made

EXCEPT where either being a man OR being a woman was a genuine occupational qualification for a job.

I believe it erred on the side of "if it's a single-sex job, trans people of either sex can be excluded" - there's an exception to the gender reassignment discrimination law.

I believe the GRA2004 removed that exception for people with a GRC. But I'm not quite able to put all the bits together, and see where that left GRC holders.

LangClegsInSpace · 31/05/2021 15:07

The law as it stands requires an intention to reassign but I don’t think you could legitimately argue the intention could subsist indefinitely without action. So at some point action would have to be taken.

The code of practice says:

2.20 The reassignment of a person’s sex may be proposed but never gone through; the person may be in the process of reassigning their sex ; or the process may have happened previously. It may include undergoing the medical gender reassignment treatments, but it does not require someone to undergo medical treatment in order to be protected.

...

2.22 The Act requires that a person should have at least proposed to undergo gender reassignment. It does not require such a proposal to be irrevocable. People who start the gender reassignment process but then decide to stop still have the protected characteristic of gender reassignment.

www.equalityhumanrights.com/en/publication-download/services-public-functions-and-associations-statutory-code-practice

I think this is important because it means detransitioners and desisters are still protected from discrimination.

ChazsBrilliantAttitude · 31/05/2021 15:39

LangCleginSpace

That’s interesting. I can see why a protection for desisters/detransitioners is needed. However, if someone just says they propose to make a change as a form of self ID without any intention to reassign that is a problem. I think we do need to revisit the law.

thirdfiddle · 31/05/2021 16:49

Surely there's a massive difference between gender identity and gender reassignment as regards equality law. Gender identity doesn't require being trans. People who identify as cis would also have a gender identity.

If stonewall replace gender reassignment with gender identity in equalities law, doesn't that deal a nasty blow to trans rights as trans people will no longer be specifically protected on grounds of being trans? "Why no judge, we're not discriminating on gender identity, look, all these employees here have gender identity female, just like the complainant."

They might still be protected on the intersection of male sex and female gender identity, if they don't have a GRC, and if Stonewall don't also succeed in removing sex too.

BlueLipstickRocks · 31/05/2021 17:40

If stonewall replace gender reassignment with gender identity in equalities law, doesn't that deal a nasty blow to trans rights as trans people will no longer be specifically protected on grounds of being trans?

Exactly!

Stonewall have made things 10 times harder.

LangClegsInSpace · 31/05/2021 19:00

I found an interesting Lords debate on the equality bill. An amendment was proposed to add a requirement for medical supervision to the definition of gender reassignment. So many of the points raised in the opening speech are things which have proven to be massive issues today:

The Lord Bishop of Chichester (on behalf of the Lord Bishop of Chester) - ... but this amendment has a different purpose. It asks that transgendering or transgendered people, claiming the legal protection of this Bill, would need to be or have been under the supervision of a qualified medical practitioner, which is the present situation. The promoters of this amendment certainly do not object to the inclusion of gender reassignment as a protected characteristic. I know from my own experience as a priest and pastor that those who suffer from gender dysphoria are in a particularly vulnerable position in society, which in many cases can be quite acute. To find oneself in a gender which one believes and experiences to be a false characterisation, possessing physical characteristics that one does not recognise as one’s own, is a situation that most of us would find hard to imagine.

There are some within and without different faith communities who doubt the possibility of genuine gender reassignment. Views vary within and between the churches and other communities on this matter and its implications for such matters as ordination or marriage. Some of my colleagues—including, so he tells me, my right reverend friend in whose stead I stand—would be willing in principle to ordain such a person or to solemnise their marriage in their new gender. Others would not, but we would all recognise the uncertainties and ambiguities which lead different people to different conclusions.

Although some scientific and legal aspects of the situation remain unclear, I hope that all noble Lords will share a sense of care and compassion for those in this situation. This amendment is not, however, about our individual attitudes or beliefs on the matter but about the rights of citizens to fair treatment and respect for their personal identity. Of course, one of the most headline-catching aspects of gender reassignment is the question of the surgery which forms part of some, although not all, cases. Normally, medical surgery removes diseased or dead tissue. Transgendering surgery removes what would otherwise present as healthy tissue, but of course that “otherwise” is absolutely critical. That is the problem, and it leads some people to question the authenticity of the condition of gender dysphoria—or, at least, the recourse to radical surgery in order to address it.

The Bill refers to people who are proposing to undergo, are undergoing or have undergone a process of gender reassignment, but to what does that “process” refer? It might seem to imply a formal process, overseen by the medical profession, but paragraph 64 of the Explanatory Notes states that the clause changes the existing requirements,

“by no longer requiring a person to be under medical supervision”,

in order,

“to come within it”.

What, then, is the process that is envisaged? Are we talking merely about self-certification that one is in the process of reassigning one’s gender? That is what the Explanatory Notes say, and to many of us that seems to carry the notion of individual rights too far, because it detaches them too much from the rights of others and the ultimate good of the wider community. Toggle showing location ofColumn 380It is one thing to make proper provision for those suffering from gender dysphoria; it is another to enshrine in law the principle that one’s gender is a matter of personal choice. Moreover, would this change not lay the provisions of the Bill open to potential abuse? Would it not make the legal question of who is or is not proposing to undergo, undergoing or has undergone a process of gender reassignation so vague as to make the work of a tribunal potentially very difficult indeed?

There are obvious practical problems with the clause. Does wider society not have the right to require that somebody in these circumstances, if they are to claim the legal protection which society can afford, should be under the supervision of a medical practitioner? That would guard against potential abuse of the provisions and give clear guidance to the courts concerning who is or is not potentially protected by the Bill.

To be under medical supervision would not require that any particular medical procedures have been carried out or are in prospect. People can, after all, undergo gender reassignment without surgical intervention. Nor would people need legally to reassign their gender in order to come under the protection of the Bill; they would simply need the supportive supervision of a medical practitioner, and to have got to that point in the process before claiming the formal protection of this law. To accept this amendment would not, of course, justify discriminatory behaviour towards those who are not under medical supervision, but it would mean that the formal support of the law could be claimed only by those whose sense of compulsion to reassign their gender had a degree of recognition and support by the medical profession.

I finish on a more general point that may be the most fundamental of all. The Bill appears to reduce gender identity to a matter of personal and individual choice. If so, are there wider problems beyond the specific and specialised issue of transgendering in such a move? We often dwell in our debates on the social consequence of family breakdown and the general confusion over human relationships in our society, and it is usually the children who suffer most, as the recent Second Reading debate on the Child Poverty Bill made plain once again.

The constitution of the human race as male and female is fundamental—equal and different. Certainly, the genetic and physiological differences between male and female are far greater than the other protected characteristics. Furthermore, it seems significant that people usually have an awareness of themselves as either male or female. There is no protected characteristic of being neither male nor female, or the androgynous state of being both male and female. Most people have a sense of being or wanting to be one or the other. Would giving legal protection to transgendering or transgender people on their self-certification alone serve further to undermine a proper sense of the differentiation of male and female and, therefore, equality? It is too important an issue for wider society to be regarded merely as a matter of individual decision and self-certification.

These more general concerns undergird the practical considerations that I outlined earlier. Would it not be safer all round—not least in relation to young people, Toggle showing location ofColumn 381who often feel confusion about their gender as well as their sexuality—to continue to encourage the proper support and supervision of the medical profession; and to require this if legal protection against discrimination is to be invoked? It seems as though there is some confusion over whether the intention is to give protection to those who are seriously engaged in gender reassignment—which is how the clause sounds and, indeed, how it appears in the title—or whether, in accordance with the notes, it is designed to give protection to all and sundry, including those who are experimenting with cross-dressing.

Young people are most vulnerable in all this, not least because there are those who may experiment, suffer confusion about sexual identity and orientation, and need every encouragement to seek professional help. This is, at this stage, a probing amendment, designed to clarify what the Government intend in amending the Sex Discrimination Act by removing the requirement for medical supervision. I beg to move.

hansard.parliament.uk/Lords/2010-01-11/debates/10011139000077/EqualityBill#contribution-10011146000033

And guess what? All the issues raised were hand-waved away.

LangClegsInSpace · 31/05/2021 19:11

Apologies for a couple of 'Toggle showing location ...' in the middle there Blush

WinnieSmith · 31/05/2021 19:14

So does it count as gender reassignment if the individual fetishises "acting" as the opposite sex?

LangClegsInSpace · 31/05/2021 19:21

Question in the Commons:

Hugh Bailey - Whether the protected characteristic of gender reassignment proposed in the Equality Bill will protect transgendered people who choose not to seek medical advice or to change their physiological attributes.

hansard.parliament.uk/Commons/2009-05-14/debates/09051460000027/GenderReassignment(EqualityBill)#contribution-09051460000134

LangClegsInSpace · 31/05/2021 19:52

@WinnieSmith

So does it count as gender reassignment if the individual fetishises "acting" as the opposite sex?
I don't think that was the intention. In response to Bayley, Vera Baird (Solicitor General) said:

Yes, the Bill provides an amended definition of gender reassignment which removes the reference to a person’s being under medical supervision that exists in the current anti-discrimination law. In the Bill, the protected characteristic of gender reassignment covers transsexual people who take steps to enable them to live permanently in the opposite gender to the one assigned to them at birth. There is no requirement for them to seek medical advice or undergo any surgery or other medical intervention. (my bold)

But it's so loose that unless the fetishist cross-dresser is honest about their motivations then they would be covered. Also they would be covered if someone perceived them to be transsexual.

In the Lords debate above, a point was repeatedly raised that the EHRC had submitted evidence saying that “Most transgender people do not live permanently in their acquired gender” - this was never adequately dealt with.

Baroness Thornton said - Clause 7 does not cover transvestites or others who choose temporarily to adopt the appearance of the opposite gender. While we do not condone anyone being treated badly because of the way in which they present themselves, it would not be appropriate to provide people who present themselves temporarily as of a gender other than their birth gender with the same protection against discrimination that is available to a person with gender dysphoria, who is somebody who has been assigned one gender at birth, but believes that they are of another gender.

But she didn't say how it would be possible to tell the difference between TVs and “Most transgender people [who] do not live permanently in their acquired gender”

It was all just The point that is being made in the Bill is that discrimination takes place against people who are transsexual. That is what we need to focus on.

With a side order of They are the most vulnerable. There are very few of them—I think not more than a few hundred in this country—but in my professional experience they are the most vulnerable people of all because they touch on the fears of ignorant people and they need protection. - from Lord Lester of Herne Hill.

So the number of trans people had dropped from about 5000 (in debates on the GRA) to 'not more than a few hundred' in 2010.

Also Lord Lester did not trouble himself to estimate the number of transvestites/cross-dressers. Rather a lot more than 'a few hundred'!

A law designed to protect a few hundred people, that is wide open to abuse by hundreds of thousands of other people (actually probably millions), for whom it was never intended, is a shockingly bad law.

WinnieSmith · 31/05/2021 19:58

@LangClegsInSpace

A law designed to protect a few hundred people, that is wide open to abuse by hundreds of thousands of other people (actually probably millions), for whom it was never intended, is a shockingly bad law.

Do you think millions will abuse it?

LangClegsInSpace · 31/05/2021 20:13

It's pretty clear that Lynne Featherstone wanted 'gender identity':

We also welcome what we hope is a move away from treating transsexualism as a medical condition. It is currently labelled gender reassignment under the protected characteristics. For a long time, those in the transgender community have had physically to change gender before qualifying for the same protection as other strands. To date, the transgender spectrum has not really been understood. While we understand the desire for clear definitions in the Bill, many people find themselves on that spectrum but do not necessarily want a sex change. This is about people who face discrimination because of how they express their gender but do not fit into neat boxes. As the Bill progresses, we will test the Government on exact definitions, because we are still concerned about the continued, fairly narrow definition whereby transgender is seen as part of a process on the way to a change of gender. That is only a slight advance on where we are now, and we would wish those anywhere on the spectrum to have the full protection of equality under the law.

hansard.parliament.uk/Commons/2009-05-11/debates/0905118000001/EqualityBill#contribution-0905118000429

And then later ...

In respect of people whose gender identity is not clear, I have never felt that the Government have properly understood the difference between gender reassignment and gender identity.

hansard.parliament.uk/Commons/2009-12-02/debates/09120237000001/EqualityBill#contribution-09120257000572

I think the government understood the difference clearly and only ever intended to protect transsexuals - i.e. 'people who take steps to enable them to live permanently in the opposite gender to the one assigned to them at birth.'

They were just incapable of producing legislation that would reflect their intentions without being wide open to abuse because it would have been terribly unkind to ask the hard but necessary questions.

LangClegsInSpace · 31/05/2021 20:22

[quote WinnieSmith]@LangClegsInSpace

A law designed to protect a few hundred people, that is wide open to abuse by hundreds of thousands of other people (actually probably millions), for whom it was never intended, is a shockingly bad law.

Do you think millions will abuse it?[/quote]
I think there are probably millions of cross-dressing men in the UK. Most will only be 'dressing' in the privacy of their own homes.

I think there are thousands of cross-dressing men who are already abusing this law.

There's nothing to stop any of them.

WinnieSmith · 31/05/2021 20:29

@LangClegsInSpace

I think there are thousands of cross-dressing men who are already abusing this law

By gaining access to womens' spaces?

LangClegsInSpace · 31/05/2021 20:40

It's worth noting Featherstone's language -

the transgender spectrum

people who face discrimination because of how they express their gender but do not fit into neat boxes

those anywhere on the spectrum

She might as well be discussing umbrellas. This is 2009, six years before Stonewall turned into a trans lobby group.

Stonewall have done tremendous damage by amplifying the idea of the 'trans umbrella', 'acceptance without exception' bla bla, and embedding their dodgy world view into all our institutions. But they didn't invent this idea, it's much, much older and it appears to have been embedded in every trans rights campaign for as long as people have been campaigning for trans rights.

LangClegsInSpace · 31/05/2021 20:43

[quote WinnieSmith]@LangClegsInSpace

I think there are thousands of cross-dressing men who are already abusing this law

By gaining access to womens' spaces?[/quote]
Yes. Why wouldn't they? I'm sure they find it thrilling and there's nothing to stop them.

WinnieSmith · 31/05/2021 20:45

@LangClegsInSpace

As per that twitter feed (I don't have the link) that documents lude acts being perfomed in the presence of women and children?

LangClegsInSpace · 31/05/2021 21:04

Some of these cross-dressing men will perform lewd acts.

Another much larger group of cross-dressing men will just get a thrill off being in women's spaces, either because they like to imagine that they pass as women, or because they know that they don't and they know they are not women and they know that women can do nothing to stop them.

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