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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Another reason why we need sex segregated spaces for women and girls

15 replies

Stealhsquirrelnutkin · 28/05/2021 14:19

I posted this last night, on a thread that got taken down because the topic breached the moderation principles.

It was hard to write, and I don't want it to be lost. So instead of starting anther thread on that topic I'd like to start one on what I think is the underlying reason why 90% of us did not agree that "opting out" of the gender binary is the best solution for the unique problems that plague members of the female sex class.

A previous poster wrote "Some people (mainly women) have been victims of abuse which they wouldn’t have been subjected to if they were men. Perhaps they don’t want to be identified with the difference that they feel caused this to happen to them." which really made me feel heartsick for young women today, who have been cut off from the wisdom and hard won experience of previous generations, and inspired me to write the following.
........................
As a lesbian in my sixties with a history of terrible abuse, reading this makes me sad for those women and girls who have been tricked by the pervasive genderist dogma into futilely trying to opt out of being female, while still living in the same dangerous world that views vulnerable females as fair prey.

How convenient for a world that abuses children (particularly girls), and women, to have come up with a way of getting victims to ignore the abuse, ignore the imbalance of power that enabled it, and individually attempt to identify "out" of the difference that attracted the abuse, while ignoring the plight of all the helpless, trapped children and doomed women coming along behind them.

Back in the 70s and 80s we women got to talking, in women's circles, in women only spaces. Magical spaces, so safe that words we never thought we'd ever be able to say were spoken aloud. We soon discovered that what we thought was our own, very private, very personal history of incest and sexual exploitation was not, as we had previously though, something that had only happened to us in the entire history of the world, and something we could never ever speak of to another living soul. We were aghast to hear so many other women telling near identical stories, and it dawned on us that, despite what we had been taught to believe, we really were not responsible for what had been done to us. We heard other women making excuses for their abusers, and suddenly recognised that we had been doing the exact same thing. Together we realised that the shame we had been carrying was NOT OURS to bear.

We helped each other to heal, to turn our anger outwards, to take control of our nightmares and change how they ended. We raged, we organised, we spoke out and we had each others backs when we finally went public to shame our abusers. This happens often now, people speaking out about historic abuse, and (thanks to the women's movement) victims can now expect to be treated with respect and consideration, so young women today will have no concept of how traumatic it was to go public back then. Back when nobody spoke about incest and child abuse, except as sick jokes, and survivors (especially the ones whose mental health had been destroyed or whose coping strategies had involved drugs, sex and alcohol) were routinely dismissed as deranged, vindictive, unhinged harpies, falsely accusing respected pillars of the community, and anyway it's all water under the bridge, there are two sides to every story, and least said soonest mended.

We set up women's centres, women's holiday camps and women's refuges. We raised the money, we learnt DIY so that we could do the renovations and necessary upkeep. We held courses to teach other women life skills, so that crushed women who had been controlled by men their entire lives could grow in confidence, sort their own finances, learn to drive, use their own power tools, unblock their own drains, and change their own plugs.

Groups of fierce, organised women are a terrifying force to be reckoned with, we changed the world for the better. Individual women who chose to opt out of womanhood, hoping to secure their own safe future without any consideration for the women and girls they leave behind are to be pitied. Perhaps things would be different if women's spaces still existed, if groups of women had the privacy and security to sit in a circle and take turns to talk from their hearts, and to listen without interrupting, about the things that were important in their lives. The energy of those circles really did raise our consciousness, their colonisation and destruction is a terrible loss. It breaks my heart that girls and young women no longer have access to those magical spaces, and any desire to recreate them is pilloried as hateful and exclusionary.
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So, instead of getting offended by old fogies like myself drawing similarities between the non binary people in 2021 and the people in 1975 who based their entire identity on their Zodiac sign, lets talk about how we can throw a life line to the girls nearing puberty in 2021.

What can we do to build their critical reasoning skills? To help them see through the sophisticated manipulation from advertising and social media that permeates their lives?

OP posts:
NoIdontwanttoseeyourknob · 28/05/2021 14:33

I think there is something really essential about women’s support across the generations.

The point has been made before that one of the “successes” of those who are opposed to women’s rights is to paint those who fought the battles in the 70s and 80s - for example, Germaine Greer or Linda Bellos - as out of touch bigots.

When I watched Eurovision I was struck by how many people were commenting about the “gender-bending” (to use an 80s term) Italian competitors, as though they were revolutionary and new. If you’re my age you remember Bowie, and T-Rex, and glam rock. We’re not old bigots and we’re not out-of-touch!

ArabellaScott · 28/05/2021 14:34

Flowers OP.

Groups of fierce, organised women are a terrifying force to be reckoned with

Cheers to that.

Critical reasoning skills are only getting more and more essential as we start to navigate fake news, social media, deepfakes, etc. These are being taught, to an extent, in schools. However I don't think they take it quite far enough - it's maybe not even possible to teach someone to question authority while one is in that kind of hierarchical didactic dynamic, if that makes sense.

So I suspect we need examples, object lessons, in how to maintain our boundaries, our common sense, how to question and consider our own biases as well as the information we are presented with.

JediGnot · 28/05/2021 14:39

I doubt this will be the most insightful response you get, but it would be fantastic if women like you were able to go around local schools teaching girls and / or all pupils the recent history of real world feminism. What was done, why and what was won?

If you're not able to do that then making videos - alone or with others - might be useful.

Is there much evidence on the teaching of critical thinking, or is it more something that either comes naturally to people or it doesn't?

I firmly believe in the potential of youth groups and youth centres to make massive positive differences to the most vulnerable in society... we cannot have enough of them, and part of what they should be doing - aside from providing an ear and a safe place to have a bit of fun - is to teach basic life skills, of which critical thinking is right up there as one of the most important.

I was listening to something recently - Akala I think - making the point that in the afro-carribean community in the UK saturday school has a massive positive impact on kids lives compared to the kids who don't go.

Thelnebriati · 28/05/2021 14:50

Jedi stop telling women to speak out. We've seen first hand how little that has any impact on you on other threads.
Women speaking out doesn't tackle male entitlement. Neither do equality laws.
Men need to stop putting the onus onto women and just step up.

JustcameoutGC · 28/05/2021 14:51

The folly of youth could really do some societal damage this time. By the time these young women see the truth, that it doesn't matter how they identify, it doesnt matter how inclusive they are, females, no will always bear the burden of having children disproportionately, will be paid less, will receive poorer health are, will be abused and objectified.

Men, again no matter how they identify, will always be paid more, be able to have kids and see minimal changes to their life and earning power, will always be physically stronger and more likely to hurt and abuse us. And now, there will be no escape. Nowhere that excludes them. No sentence or even thought that doesn't include them.

Inclusivity has its place. But some exclusions exist for very good reasons.

NoIdontwanttoseeyourknob · 28/05/2021 14:52

Some women are not allowed to speak out.

Other women are threatened with arrest.

ifIwerenotanandroid · 28/05/2021 15:40

squirrel What an amazing post! I went through some of the same groups as you describe, way back when, & it was exactly as you describe.

Looking back, my main memory is of the strong support for each one of us regardless of age, race, class or the experiences we'd gone through. So what the young people say they want today (inclusivity), we had back then in reality. There were strong leaders in those groups, & they made it happen & kept it safe & focussed. And then there's the stunning effect when women came together to focus on a problem which which would have floored any outsiders & which had never before been voiced by participants. So powerful. Anyone who wasn't there would never understand it.

ifIwerenotanandroid · 28/05/2021 15:41

@JustcameoutGC

The folly of youth could really do some societal damage this time. By the time these young women see the truth, that it doesn't matter how they identify, it doesnt matter how inclusive they are, females, no will always bear the burden of having children disproportionately, will be paid less, will receive poorer health are, will be abused and objectified.

Men, again no matter how they identify, will always be paid more, be able to have kids and see minimal changes to their life and earning power, will always be physically stronger and more likely to hurt and abuse us. And now, there will be no escape. Nowhere that excludes them. No sentence or even thought that doesn't include them.

Inclusivity has its place. But some exclusions exist for very good reasons.

Another great post.
thinkingaboutLangCleg · 28/05/2021 16:03

The energy of those [women-only] circles really did raise our consciousness, their colonisation and destruction is a terrible loss. It breaks my heart that girls and young women no longer have access to those magical spaces, and any desire to recreate them is pilloried as hateful and exclusionary.

I agree, Stealhsquirrelnutkin, and thank you for starting this thread with your own powerful testimony.

I also agree with JediGnot that it would be fantastic if women like you were able to teach these things at local schools, though I think this would be difficult to organise. Making videos, perhaps hosted on one of the feminist sites, would be an excellent idea. So much of what we had has been lost. Not lost to us, who lived it, but lost to later generations of women and girls.

The co-opted, male-pleasing movement that now uses the name 'feminism' is not a friend to women. Those growing up now deserve to know what was possible and should be their birthright.

Minezatea · 28/05/2021 16:40

Thank you @Stealhsquirrelnutkin
This was a powerful post. I think some young people do not understand that the very best types of oppression are the ones where you are kettled into oppressing yourself. They do not appear to be using critical reasoning and don't yet seem to be able to notice how the cancel culture is contributing to only the powerful now having a voice. A tv show I was watching had a powerful quote "it's good to critique things. It's also good to critique the people don't the critiquing". If we take out any part of this equation (as they have) we are in trouble.

lazylinguist · 28/05/2021 16:55

Great post, OP. I absolutely agree about how sad and worrying it is to see girls and young women trying to identify out of womanhood.

I'm also horrified by the current erosion of women and women's spaces. But I must confess that I'm 50 and have had no experience, or even awareness really, of the kind of sisterhood and magical women's spaces you talk about. Maybe that's because I was fortunate enough to have no real cause to go looking for that kind of support. But it is terrible to think that the younger generation of women might not have those lifelines if they need them.

Lonel · 28/05/2021 17:09

We were aghast to hear so many other women telling near identical stories, and it dawned on us that, despite what we had been taught to believe, we really were not responsible for what had been done to us.

This is so true. I cannot underestimate how much it meant to me to see certain things that happened to me through a feminist perspective. Suddenly I was able to see it as part of a bigger picture and less of a personal failing for not being able to avoid being attacked. My heart bleeds for young women today who are basically being told that MVAW is not a thing, and as a consequence that it is all their fault. Sad We are already seeing mental health among teenagers taking a nosedive and it looks like it will get worse.

Stealhsquirrelnutkin · 28/05/2021 17:15

ifIwerenot

my main memory is of the strong support for each one of us regardless of age, race, class or the experiences we'd gone through. So what the young people say they want today (inclusivity), we had back then in reality. There were strong leaders in those groups, & they made it happen & kept it safe & focussed. And then there's the stunning effect when women came together to focus on a problem which which would have floored any outsiders & which had never before been voiced by participants. So powerful. Anyone who wasn't there would never understand it.

It's a tragedy that young women and girls have been cut off from previous generations, and turned against more experienced women, who'd be able to warn them of the inevitable pitfalls hidden in the paths they will be walking.

They don't have access to the wiser, older women who mentored us, they have no concept of female only space, nor do they have the slightest inkling of how different the atmosphere is in a women only space compared to those spaces segregated by gender identity that are what they currently have to make do with.

They spend many hours online, consuming media that is designed to sell them unnecessary stuff, and damaging ideas. It would be much better for them, (and for the world that still needs more input from women) if they made the time to get together in the real world, designating a few hours each month for exploring the female experience as it effects them in the here and now.

Forums like this one are good for passing along ideas, but the real magic happens when you get a group of women meeting together in a structured situation that is conducive to to sharing their experiences and finding out about what is important in their lives.

I don't think curmudgeonly old bats like myself would be appreciated if we turned up in schools to impart wisdom to the youth of today. I'd much rather that young women learnt how to build their own consciousness raising groups that would help them recognise their own overriding concerns, and galvanized them to activate, and organise to achieve their goals, just like us crones dig back in our own younger days.

One good thing to come out of this co-ordinated attack on the sex based rights of women and girls is that radical feminism is on the rise again, as females of all ages realise that they have been betrayed.

For any younger women reading this who wish they'd been alive back then, and been able to take part in one of those magical groups, there's absolutely nothing stopping you from forming a group with other women in your local area who want to give it a go. It costs nothing, you don't need to buy literature or pay membership to any pre-existing organisation, just assemble some like minded wenches and be very clear that the person whose turn it is to speak is not to be interrupted or questioned, and that each person (even the very quiet ones who finds speaking in a group challenging) takes their turn and is listened to. Initially it might help if group members are given a topic to think about before the meeting, so that they can share their feelings about it if they don't have anything more pressing that they need to say.

It can take a while to adjust to the rules of a feminist talking circle, some people find it really hard to give voice to their own thoughts in front of others and would much prefer to fade into the wallpaper and "escape" their turn. Others will be wriggling in their seats, struggling to wait their turn and wrestling with the temptation to interrogate a previous speaker. So you just have to expect set backs and keep at it till it becomes second nature. Hopefully, while you're getting started, there'll always be someone who notices when the group veers off course, and who isn't scared to point this out and get things back on track. Traditionally the groups I was part of didn't have leaders, (which could be intensely frustrating to people like me who lack patience and tend to want to take charge), but hopefully you'll have one of those wonderful women who always seem to keep their cool, see the bigger picture, and gently remind everyone when they start to stray off piste.

Here's an explanation of how some of those groups were organised. I've snaffled it from the website of a Swedish women's organisation that has managed to keep the faith through the decades, despite repeated attempts to infiltrate and destroy the female only ethos.

FEMINIST PEDAGOGIC
Our goal is that the activities at Kvinnohojden shall be liberating, both on a personal level and social. Where there is oppression, we want to make it visible and break it. Together we women create a community that functions as a haven from the outer, visible oppression in patriarchal society, for example discrimination at work, ”women-negative” commercials and men’s violence against women. This outer visible oppression creates an invisible inner oppression within us in the form of bad self esteem and prejudice against ourselves and other women. This self-oppression can be difficult to identify and put into words. Therefore, we work with developing liberating working methods.

We want to break down the traditional authority patterns in different roles and give space for everyone’s experiences. It is important that each women has the opportunity to feel safe, welcome and respected in the group.

A cornerstone to our activities is ”the round”, where each woman gets to say her opinion without being interrupted or questioned. We divide ourselves into ”base-groups”, small groups without a leader, where we get the opportunity to concentrate on whatever feels important to us.

OP posts:
EmpressWitchDoesntBurn · 28/05/2021 17:21

Sheila Jeffreys’ autobiography, Trigger Warning, is absolutely brilliant on feminist history. I read it feeling envious & wistful, & then had the thrill of her moving on to the movement we’re building today, women I knew & events I was part of.

TabbyStar · 28/05/2021 18:32

Some great posts. I'm early 50s and so came in at the tail end of some of the things that you're talking about. I volunteered in rape crisis and other women's campaigns, and read feminists like Sheila Jeffries, Mary Daly, Kate Millett, Shulamith Firestone. I think we had a sense of what women before us had done that we benefited from.

I believe eventually young women will get fed up of ever-destructive beauty standards, being choked and God knows what else in a porn-saturated culture, and not"allowed" to have anything for themselves and there will be a backlash and they'll be meeting in consciousness-raising groups again. I'm not sure I see it coming soon though.

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