Medicalisation of Children

[WinnieSmith]

Long time lurker, first time poster

FWR has discussed, at length, the use of puberty blockers on children and the negative and long-lasting impact that this can have.

I'm wondering if there's a link to be made between puberty blockers and the use of the covid vaccines on children (especially those under the age of 16).

I'm not suggesting that there might be short/long term side effects of these vaccines but that, as with puberty blockers, the pharmaceutical industry is potentially onto a gravy train - especially if the vaccines become standard for all children along with MMR etc.

I should emphasise that this is not an anti-vaxx post but simply questioning if there's a link between the money being made from puberty blockers and similar interventions for "trans kids" and the money that will potentially be made from giving young children the covid vaccine - when it's already been shown that children are at very low risk of showing symptoms, let alone serious symptoms.

With vaccination, it isn’t the pharmaceutical companies that are driving the call to vaccinate children, but governments and groups like the WHO.

The mass vaccination is a rapid response to a worldwide pandemic. Decisions about the best course of action are being made faster than normal and it may be discovered in time, that some of the decisions made were ill-advised, but there’s no way of telling which. I’ve wondered for a while whether, when we can see more clearly, which countries will be seen to have responded best. It may not be those that are currently lauded.

The aim with vaccination is generally not protection of individuals, it is to create herd immunity. Therefore anyone in the community who can be infected should be vaccinated in order to protect those who can’t be.

Again, in time, if the vaccination turns out to have some major, significant side-effects that we are not yet aware of, then we will have to face the consequences. But the driver of this situation appears to be the pandemic. It isn’t being driven by medics, pharma and a social trend, which does appear to be the case with rushing into transitioning of children.

TLDR: we are rushing into vaccination due to a genuine medical situation and a genuine aim, which is herd immunity. It may prove to have been unwise, but it isn’t comparable with the medicalisation of children with what will almost certainly prove to be mental health problems which would be more effectively treated with psychiatric help.

Why is this place full of people desperate to argue reasons not to have the vaccine after over a year of watching thousands die from something that's now more preventable.
Open your eyes for gods sake. Look at Bolton and see the effects of not having the vaccines.

@AnyOldPrion

Thank you for your thoughtful response.

I agree that the vaccination program is a response to the pandemic.

However, if children are vaccinated and that vaccine becomes one of the standard vaccines given to children, this will produce profits pretty much ad infinitum for the likes of Pfizer.

I agree that "gender dysphoria" would be more effectively treated with psychiatry - but I still see the potentially unnecessary drugs as being comparable.

In terms of "herd immunity" - once the elderly and vulnerable are vaccinated, followed by the majority of adults, herd immunity may be reached without the immunisation of children - there is no clear evidence yet as to a) how many children/adults already have the antibodies and b) how many need to be vaccinated in order to achieve herd immunity (see Fauci's constant revision of the numbers of vaccinations required to achieve this).

You're conflating two completely different issues.

@chocolateorangeinhaler

Please re-read my post.

I'm not looking for reasons not to vaccinate, I'm suggesting that vaccinating children may be unnecessary and if so, will produce profits for the likes of Pfizer and co, from now until forever.

My post was not about vaccines in general but about the medicalisation of children.

However, if children are vaccinated and that vaccine becomes one of the standard vaccines given to children

There you have it.

IF.

When we are at that stage, we can discuss it. Right now, we are in the midst of a worldwide pandemic and that is driving the response. The aim is to create herd immunity, where it is generally considered that the higher the level of societal immunity created, the more likely it is that herd immunity will be achieved.

We can discuss how likely it is that such immunity can be achieved, given that this is a rapidly mutating virus. That might be a useful discussion.

But given the precedent with flu vaccinations, in the UK they are generally not given to children in the way that MMR is. Coronavirus is similar to flu in many ways. There’s no reason to assume the vaccination pattern for COVID will be used innappropriately once the pandemic wave has been slowed.

Vaccinations are quite possibly over-used in the US and that might be problematic, but that is a localised issue and not related to your comparison. The most extreme forms of transactivist driven medicine also appear to be occurring in the US. But that’s down to the US medical system and not related to the question you are proposing.

There you have it. IF. When we are at that stage, we can discuss it.

Except it's already being discussed in the mainstream:

Covid-19: Should all children get a vaccine?

@SD1978

I'm not convinced that I am - whilst I appreciate the issues are different in some ways, it's still the medicalisation of children, where this is potentially unnecessary, potentially providing huge profits for large pharmaceutical companies for years to come.

In terms of the trans issue - this is a cynical ploy by the TRA lobby and in terms of the vaccinating children (potentially unnecessarily), this is a cynical ploy by the pharmaceutical companies.

I'm not saying the two are identical but I still believe there are comparisons to be drawn.

Vaccines are used to immunise against a virus that is widespread, transmissible by children and that has caused more than 100000 deaths in this country alone. It’s already authorised for use in children by authorities in a number of countries and is a major factor in opening education safely.
Puberty blockers are used in a small number of children to treat precocious puberty. As they have known detrimental side effects they are generally used for a short time only. Their use in cases of gender dysphoria is still experimental and potentially very dangerous to the individual.
We can safely say that gender dysphoria is not a novel virus, is not easily transmissible, has not caused millions of deaths worldwide and has not wrecked the global economy or education. To compare the use of vaccines to puberty blockers is ridiculous.

Vaccines are a one time (or two time) thing which prevents a spread of a pandemic and death in vulnerable people. There are no known side effect as of now.

Puberty blockers and cross sex hormones are a lifelong income stream for pharmaceutical firms. They have medical no impact except on the individual. There is no evidence that mental health even for the individual improves. Puberty blockers have known side effects and a detrimental impact long term. Cross sex hormones are irreversible.

@borntobequiet

I'm not trying to compare the two in the way that you suggest.

I'm trying to suggest that both puberty blockers in children and the trans child trend and vaccinating children when their risk from coronavirus potentially produces massive, ongoing profits for the pharmaceutical companies - the medicalisation of children using puberty blockers has been suggested on this board as being a "cash cow" for pharmaceutical companies in the past.

I am not comparing vaccines with puberty blockers - simply suggesting that the potentially widespread use of both for children could produce significant profits for pharmaceutical companies.

To be clear, I'm not suggesting that the vaccines may be dangerous to children - just potentially unnecessary.

@WinnieSmith

There you have it. IF. When we are at that stage, we can discuss it.

Except it's already being discussed in the mainstream:

Covid-19: Should all children get a vaccine?

Yes, but your point was that IF the vaccine becomes one of the standard vaccines given to children.

That is a decision for later, not now in the midst of the pandemic. There’s no reason to presume the vaccine will become one of the standard vaccines given to children. Flu vaccines have generally been given to high risk groups. It may be used a little more widely now, but that is after years of use and an excellent safety record.

So you are conflating two different things: the current situation and something that might possibly never happen.

Can I ask why you put this on FWR? It doesn’t seem to have any relationship to women’s rights?

Food produces massive profits for supermarkets. Kids who are introduced to food are then a profit source for Tesco their whole life long. Clearly we should stop feeding kids.

Protecting children against a virus that has killed people of all ages across the world, where children are carriers and can pass to elderly relatives

Compared with

Stopping children from developing normally during puberty.

I'm also wondering why this is in FWR, maybe better in chat or AIBU?

Can I ask why you put this on FWR?

Because I'm trying to compare giving children potentially unecessary vaccines and the prescription of puberty blockers - the latter at least seems to be a feminist issue (especially when expanded to a huge increase in girls transitioning and, in the future, the possibility of self ID).

maybe better in chat or AIBU

Looking for a better class of debate.

Food produces massive profits for supermarkets. Kids who are introduced to food are then a profit source for Tesco their whole life long. Clearly we should stop feeding kids.

Kids have to eat. There's no evidence that children should be given the covid vaccine - especially as covid doesn't seem to affect children and if this vaccine were included alongside MMR, it would produce a constant, unquestioning stream of revenue for e.g. pfizer

Interesting that you’re not talking about the medicalisation of adults in relation to the covid vaccine rollout

Because adults, especially older adults, are much more likely to succumb to more severe side effects of sars-cov-2

you talk about the covid vaccine becoming another routine vaccine

Yes, for adults.

Not for children, if it's not necessary.

We should be celebrating this achievement, not fearmongering

Agreed (and I'm not fearmongering)

you talk about the covid vaccine becoming another routine vaccine

Yes, for adults.

Not for children, if it's not necessary.

But this remains all ifs and buts. It may never happen,. That doesn’t compare with the current situation with medicalising children with gender dysphoria, which is occurring now.

We are in the middle of a pandemic, which of course has a bearing on the situation. Should we vaccinate children now? Probably as we are trying to achieve herd immunity. Should it become routine? Perhaps not, but that should be an evidence based discussion that will occur when the current emergency situation is under better control.

We should be celebrating this achievement, not fearmongering.

Not sure I entirely agree with this. The situation is rapidly unfolding and we have responded very quickly. That is an achievement, of course, but we can’t be certain that there will be no unforseen consequences. There were problems with narcolepsy following the rapid campaign to vaccinate against swine flu, and that type of vaccine had a more robust evidence base than the COVID vaccination.

I think we should proceed with caution. The situation is still unfolding, so we can’t yet take decisions regarding future vaccination protocols as we don’t even know what the results of this first wave of vaccination will be in terms of success in preventing infections or in terms of unforseen side-effects, which might become apparent in the longer term.

The problem here is not related to fear-mongering, I don’t think. The question of how to proceed is important and interesting. The problem here is the attempted comparison between something that is occurring right now in one branch of medicine, and something that might never happen.

If we are discussing whether children should be vaccinated now, the answer is likely medically yes: to achieve herd immunity.

But there’s no point in discussion about comparing a situation that’s occurring with one that might never occur, which is what the OP seems to be aiming for.