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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Live now - Lizz Truss oral evidence to WESC: The role of the GEO: embedding equalities across Government

90 replies

FindTheTruth · 25/05/2021 15:55

parliamentlive.tv/event/index/e426820b-d147-4dc7-adf0-a1e21bfe6bb4

My aim is not to make this a specialised conversation amongst a few groups

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ArabellaScott · 25/05/2021 22:03

[quote nauticant]It's not just angry men on twitter. Liz Truss is really getting under the skin of other progressives. Last night on Radio 4 a programme speaking favourably about Foucault made sure to have a go at her:

www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m000wcd4[/quote]
You mean, Michel Foucault the paedophile, who raped 8 and 9 year old boys?

'Foucault was a vocal proponent of consensual adult-child underage sex and pedophilia, considering them signs of liberation of both actors;[185][186][187] he argued young children could give consent.[188] In 1977, along with Jean-Paul Sartre, Jacques Derrida, and other intellectuals, Foucault signed a petition to the French parliament calling for the decriminalization of all "consensual" sexual relations between adults and minors below the age of fifteen, the age of consent in France.[189][190] He also wrote an open letter in the Le Monde in defense of three convicted pedophiles.[185][186][191] In the second and third volumes of Foucault’s History of Sexuality, pederasty and “the possibility of the love for boys” serve a “foundational role”. [192][193]'

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michel_Foucault#Underage_sex_and_pedophilia

That Michel Foucault?

nauticant · 25/05/2021 22:30

That's the one. They did mention Foucault's paedophilia in passing but were definitely more exercised by Truss criticising him while not understanding quite how clever he was.

RedDogsBeg · 25/05/2021 23:25

@FindTheTruth

the former LGBT advisory panel were a disgrace
That was the one with Crispin Blunt wasn't it? Him of the dodgy report and underhand tactics and then declaring Liz Truss couldn't cope with both roles, typical misogynist women can cope with many roles simultaneously we have to we spend our entire lives doing it.
RedDogsBeg · 25/05/2021 23:27

@nauticant

That's the one. They did mention Foucault's paedophilia in passing but were definitely more exercised by Truss criticising him while not understanding quite how clever he was.
Not that worn out trope - just not clever and enlightened enough to understand, seem to recall that was used about PIE.
FindTheTruth · 26/05/2021 05:24

@FindTheTruth

MP Alexandra Davies-Jones (Welsh Labour Party) QUESTION:

'Last week this committee heard quite damning testimony from former members of the LGBT advisory panel, who told us that you had created a hostile environment for LGBTQ people since your appointment. How do you respond to that?'

Liz Truss - ANSWER

'The LGBT panel were appointed by the previous government and they were appointed on a time limited basis until the end of March this year. And of course we're grateful for the contribution they made, but I think there were fundamental disagreements, namely members of the panel supported self-id for gender recognition certificates. I very strongly feel that there need to be checks and balances. The issue here is a fundamental difference of opinion on that issue'

TWEET

LGB Alliance @ALLIANCELGB
We salute @trussliz for her steadfastness and courage. Gender self-ID would be fraught with dangers for women, children and LGB people, whose rights under law would implode. We congratulate her for insisting on protections and safeguards./1of2

We deplore the framing of a difference of opinion on this controversial policy, by activists & MPs, as “creating a hostile environment”. This is hyperbole bordering on blackmail. If govt ministers disagree, they’re accused of being homophobic or transphobic. They’re not./2of2

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FindTheTruth · 26/05/2021 05:47

Oral evidence transcripts - Women and Equalities Committee:
committees.parliament.uk/committee/328/women-and-equalities-committee/publications/oral-evidence/

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AnyOldPrion · 26/05/2021 06:19

@FindTheTruth

'Free to Be' or 'Safe to be me', I hope the LGBT conference is a space for agreeing that same sex attraction is not hateful AKA lesbians and gay men being called bigots and de-platformed for saying as much.
I think there’s a significant difference between “Free to be”, which can be taken two ways (free to be who you actually are vs free to be exactly who you want to be, even if that is at odds with material reality) and “Safe to be me”.

The latter puts the onus on protecting people, whoever they are. There’s no implication that you should be free to be or do anything you want. You should however, be able to live your life in safety, which surely is desirable for everyone, so long as it’s balanced and takes all groups into consideration.

FindTheTruth · 26/05/2021 06:38

excellent point @AnyOldPrion hadn't spotted that. you're right the difference between “Free to be” and “Safe to be me” is huge

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PaleBlueMoonlight · 26/05/2021 06:56

Yes, good analysis, AnyOldPrion.

FindTheTruth · 26/05/2021 09:16

@happydappy2

A LOT of very angry men on twitter, bemoaning the rolling back of trans rights....They know they've lost and self ID will never happen. Thank you Liz!
PINK NEWS Editor tweet:

Benjamin Cohen @benjamincohen
Different Minister for Equalities come from different perspectives, I recognise this but Truss seems set on trashing all the work the Conservatives did to rebuild relationships with our LGBT+ community post Section 28.

So.....
'our LGBT+ community' as in the community of men silencing advocates for LGB kids, women and especially lesbians?

as Liz Truss says 'a specialised conversation amongst a few groups'.

no wonder they're furious. Liz wants equality. these men demand power.

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RedDogsBeg · 26/05/2021 10:36

Going back to Liz Truss saying women at every opportunity yesterday, quite right she is Minister for Women and Equalities, the committee she appeared before yesterday was the Women and Equalities Committee, not as the questioners seem to believe the Trans Committee.

I am still furious about the difference the way the questioners treated women appearing before the committee and men and trans. The fawning over the men and trans, making sure they used correct titles, no awkward or difficult questions asked, compare and contrast with the way women were treated - aggressive questioning, disrespect shown by not using correct titles, attitudes that were rude and dismissive, no desire to understand or acknowledge the view the women put forward.

Women and their concerns and needs should be front and centre on this Committee and in this brief, the word Women comes first that should be the remit but of course, as always, that can't possibly be when there are men to be served and worshipped.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 26/05/2021 10:44

I am still furious about the difference the way the questioners treated women appearing before the committee and men and trans. The fawning over the men and trans, making sure they used correct titles, no awkward or difficult questions asked, compare and contrast with the way women were treated - aggressive questioning, disrespect shown by not using correct titles, attitudes that were rude and dismissive, no desire to understand or acknowledge the view the women put forward.

I think they should make a formal complaint. It's really inappropriate and shows the level of bias in this supposedly impartial "Women" and "Equalities" committee which appears to me not to be focussing on either.

Thecatonthemat · 26/05/2021 10:58

Yes Redand Eresh it was very clear to all that there was a bias in the way the women were questioned...it is right that those in power eg the PM should be grilled at these committees but those giving expert opinions should be listened to respectfully, especially when they give clear and reasoned evidence, unlike the vague and batshit responses from the lobby...

RedDogsBeg · 26/05/2021 11:29

From the oral evidence transcript of the disbanded LGBT Group:

I know that Stonewall has been developing really close links with advisors at Number 10 and other parts of Government, and so looking to influence the agenda in a different way

Well colour me surprised, more evidence of Stonewall's pernicious influence.

What a load of whinging and whining from those who were on the now disbanded group and a pretty damning insight into how they perceived themselves, the power they felt the should have to dictate Government Policy and the complete lack of any consideration for anyone other than their sacred cohort. No wonder Liz Truss closed it down.

RedDogsBeg · 26/05/2021 11:35

I agree Eresh that they should make a formal complaint the difference in treatment was absolutely stark and prejudicial against them. It was abundantly clear which side the questioners favoured and that they had already made their minds up, this was NOT an impartial exercise to gather evidence fairly from both sides. The questioners had an agenda and couldn't hide their bias.

Shedbuilder · 26/05/2021 12:58

This jumped out:
I know that Stonewall has been developing really close links with advisors at Number 10 and other parts of Government, and so looking to influence the agenda in a different way

The influence of Special Advisors can't be underestimated and needs to be investigated when we get the Public Inquiry.

TheFleegleHasLanded · 26/05/2021 13:19

Liz Truss was very clear about protecting children from making 'irreversible decisions' in the HoC today:

parliamentlive.tv/event/index/cfd414ea-50e3-44ac-8300-2b7a94c9ab89?in=11:51:27&out=11:51:47

UtopiaPlanitia · 26/05/2021 13:36

I’ve watched a number of these WESC information gathering sessions and have noticed that the committee do treat certain groups of witnesses differently: they have polite and friendly questions for those they agree with whereas, those they disagree with, are asked questions designed to try and catch them out or to diminish the evidence they’re giving - the committee members are less polite and more brusque (some are downright narky).

I’ve seen many Westminister committees over the decades (BBC Parliament is very useful) and I don’t often see openly partial behaviour from committees in this way - there’s often more attention paid to trying to be objective or impartial.

PearPickingPorky · 26/05/2021 13:52

[quote TheFleegleHasLanded]Liz Truss was very clear about protecting children from making 'irreversible decisions' in the HoC today:

parliamentlive.tv/event/index/cfd414ea-50e3-44ac-8300-2b7a94c9ab89?in=11:51:27&out=11:51:47[/quote]
Good.

We also need to protect children from doing things which may not be irreversible in and of themselves, but impair their judgment or lead to them making decisions which would have lifelong irreversible consequences.

Like how we do with children and alcohol, cigarettes, sex, etc.

RedDogsBeg · 26/05/2021 13:59

Anyone know, for a non participant merely an observer and voter, if and where there is a mechanism to complain about the way this Committee conducted themselves? As a pp said it was the most impartial, agenda led, biased parliamentary committee I've ever seen and I want to make that point.

BessieWallisWarfield · 26/05/2021 17:42

The question at the beginning to Liz Truss about how she'd demonstrate that she was 'passionate' about equalities was bizarre.

Would Rishi ever be asked if he was 'passionate' about the economy??

Liz isn't marketing luxury branded goods for heavens sake, she's in government. What we need from her is a carefully thought-out strategy, and the Committee's job is to probe for weaknesses in that.

Stopthisnow · 26/05/2021 18:10

I don’t know if this has been mentioned elsewhere, but I noticed CEDAW was mentioned towards the end of this meeting, Sarah Phillimore has written an interesting article about the CEDAW People’s Tribunal and it’s definition of women.

“The Convention on the Elimination of Discrimination Against Women (CEDAW) is an international human rights treaty adopted by the United Nations General Assembly in 1979. Although the UK signed up to CEDAW in 1986, it has not yet been implemented into UK domestic law.”

“TheCEDAW “People’s Tribunal”was set up in July 2020 by founder Joanne Welch to examine the failure to integrate CEDAW into UK legislation and make recommendations as to how CEDAW can be given full effect with UK law. The “Tribunal” will start on 22nd June and is due to take three days. Despite its official-sounding name it has no recognised legal standing and is not part of the UK system of courts and tribunals that produced binding judgments.”

“On the face of it, this “People’s Tribunal” would appear to have a very noble aim—to improve protections for women and girls. However, the difficulty for many is that from its social media postingthe “Tribunal” is not operating from a legal framework that acknowledges the definition of woman. For instance, “a female of any age” as provided in theEquality Act 2010, but instead defines “women” as including “transgender women.” This arguably subverts the original intent of the Convention which was to recognise and protect women as a sex class and should be made clear to all those who support this venture, financially or otherwise.”

“Supporting changes to the term “woman”— to be defined by self-proclaimed “gender identity” rather than from sex—is exacerbated by the continued failure of this “People’s Tribunal” to answer any requests made over recent months via email and social media to confirm what definition of “woman” underpins their activities. Last week, Iemailedthe “Tribunal” directly requesting a response within 14 days while urging others to do the same. If we are ignored, then we will escalate this matter.”

“The aim of the “Tribunal” appears to be clear—to gather presumed “legitimacy” as a statement of legal intent by involving a number of high profile barristers and academics. The “ruling” of the “tribunal” will then be presented to law and policymakers as having some kind of binding or persuasive force that in reality it does not, and to cement the meaning of “woman” as being simply anyone who identifies as a woman on any given day.
This is precisely the strategy that has underpinned the “stealth” adoption of the “Yogyakarta Principles” as some kind of legally binding document, rather than simply the conclusions of a political lobby group... continues”

savageminds.substack.com/p/this-tribunal-cannot-define-woman

Ereshkigalangcleg · 26/05/2021 18:39

Burns really does think it should all revolve around what TRAs want.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 26/05/2021 18:41

Anyone know, for a non participant merely an observer and voter, if and where there is a mechanism to complain about the way this Committee conducted themselves? As a pp said it was the most impartial, agenda led, biased parliamentary committee I've ever seen and I want to make that point.

Maybe Office of Parliamentary Standards in the first instance.