Becoming Andi

[BluePorchAwning]

www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m000whr7

Caught this BBC programme earlier. It's going to be repeated 6 times today. They didn't like wearing dresses, didn't like long hair, they were worried about telling their parents that they didn't want to wear a dress to Xmas dinner. Now they want to start testosterone. Lots of nice illustrations and emotive music. A celebration.

So me wearing jeans, baggy t-shirts, Doc Martens with short hair for many years meant I was actually a boy?

Will they be filming a detransition for 'balance?'

A half hour video diary, shown 12 times.

Yes, I hope they'll allocate the same amount of airtime to a detransitioner. They can't be that hard to find: I knew a young woman at university in Keira Bell's situation, and that was many years ago.

I saw this earlier and the biggest thing that got me about it was why are the BBC doing this with an American trans man in the bible belt instead of a British trans man surely it would be much more relevant?
Yes it's sad that there is so much homophobia in the US but really what has that got to do with the UK?
The cynic in me wonders if it's because they couldn't find any real transphobia to document in the UK 🤔

It was interesting that the film never made clear whether Andi was in a male or female dorm. You could clearly see it was shared accommodation, but they drew a veil over that...

@Siblingquandary

So me wearing jeans, baggy t-shirts, Doc Martens with short hair for many years meant I was actually a boy?

I'm not meaning to be goady, but I honestly don't get this attitude, at all. I used to live in my Doc Martens and have short hair all through my teens. Much happier doing "boy" things (whatever the heck that means) I still "knew" I was a girl though. People who are trans obviously have the same strong sense of knowing. Wearing jeans and Doc Martens has fuck all to do with whether you're male or female. Women are perfectly able to!

As for the OP, just a link to the programme and a "much celebration" "emotive music"
It just reads like the Sun or DM clickbait link and designed to get people frothing.

Not wearing a dress to Xmas Dinner? The horror!
I genuinely can't remember ever wearing a dress for Xmas Dinner. I have pictures of my dm cooking it in a dress but I certainly never have.

Not watched it. Depends on family and age. In a family that enforces gender roles, it could well be a big deal.

How old are they?

Mock why would the BBC want to make anyone 'froth'?

And why given that gender id is internal and separate to gender presentation, does it so often come back to dresses etc?

How did you know you were a girl inside out of interest? I know it's difficult to explain but would be appreciated.

As someone who has never had that feeling I just can't understand what it feels like. I know that people feel it, but... What is it like? Are there particular situations where you feel it more, or is it all the time?

I've always felt like a person and know when it was brought to my attention by others that they didn't see me that way I found it jarring and tbh often quite angry. And a bit confused.

Mockolate

What you need to ask, then, is if those kinds of things are irrelevant, why are they part of the documentary?

It might as well say "Andi really liked peanut butter sandwiches and classical music and reruns of Full House, and was scared to tell his parents. But now he's living as his true self."

Andi seems to be the one who thinks these things are related. And if so, would that not likely be part of the "not feeling like a girl".

I think the answer here is that if your internal gender is girl/ boy then it's not unusual to want to adopt the stereotypes of dress and behaviour. Especially in a v gendered community.

I kind of get that.

What I would really love to understand is what this internal feeling is like. Why it is accepted that the vast majority of people have it, without decent research as far as I can see. Research which actually spells the question out.

When it's come up on chat etc here most posters say they feel like a person.

I do wonder if men have this feeling more?

Why is all this not being properly researched? It would be really interesting and could really advance our understanding of how humans experience the world.

It could well help trans people.

So why isn't it happening?

Oh the usual answer bit is what I have read.

How do you unpick whether the internal ID is driving the preferences, or vice versa?

Whether it's different for different people?

Where is all the proper, unbiased research

@NiceGerbil

Mock why would the BBC want to make anyone 'froth'?

And why given that gender id is internal and separate to gender presentation, does it so often come back to dresses etc?

I meant the OP with that comment. Not the BBC.

Oh ok. Sorry misunderstood.

Fwiw I'm not frothing! I haven't watched it.

Really interested in the feeling like a girl thing if you want to and can put it into words?

People who are trans obviously have the same strong sense of knowing.

So why talk about dresses?

How did you know you were a girl?

I’m also not trying to be goady, but your strong sense of having an identity that is linked to sex but separate to your body is not universal.

It’s also true that many people who identify as trans do not have a strong sense of a having a male or female identity.

@Mockolate

I guess sarcasm doesn't come across well on t'internet...?

I've had long flowing hair, cropped very short hair. I've worn baggy clothes and pretty dresses. On occasion I've even worn heels, though not for very long.

Always female.

they were worried about telling their parents that they didn't want to wear a dress to Xmas dinner.

I was a fairly feminine girl growing up. No one ever wore a dress to Christmas dinner. I was always in jeans.

I had plenty of friends who didn’t like dresses, including one who wasn’t happy about wearing a dress and make up on her wedding day.

As for ‘feeling’ like a girl - how do I know that if I had been born with a male body, given a boy’s name and treated like a boy from the day I was born, I would not ‘feel’ like a boy? What are the objective characteristics of a ‘gender identity’ that are separate from biology and so-called gender expression?

Did the women who first fought for the vote, for the right to attend medical school or to be allowed to box in the Olympics have ‘male’ gender identities?

There is never any clear explanation of gender identity separate and apart from gender expression or biology.

I do wonder if men have this feeling more?

No, pretty sure we don't. I have never associated with masculine stereotypes. I recognise most of what is described as GD from my teens (in a very mild way)

The only trans person I know from childhood grew up as a camp gay boy in an utterly toxicly masculine family. No wonder he could not identify with his model of being a man.

@Cabinfever10

I saw this earlier and the biggest thing that got me about it was why are the BBC doing this with an American trans man in the bible belt instead of a British trans man surely it would be much more relevant? Yes it's sad that there is so much homophobia in the US but really what has that got to do with the UK? The cynic in me wonders if it's because they couldn't find any real transphobia to document in the UK 🤔

Bang on.

Context is everything.

US Bible Belt is so extremely binary and sexist.

I had short hair and worn baggy clothes in my teens (25 years ago), people often mistook me for a boy. I remember Sunday school asking us to wear dresses or skirts for certain events and it made me angry, also having to wear a bridesmaid dress, or any event where I was supposed to perform some sort of feminine role. Hated my developing body and the attention it drew, still struggle terribly with how my outer appearance doesn't seem to match people's expectations of me. This and a combination of other things made me question at times whether or not I was really a boy with a 'male brain', really up until only a few years ago when I started reading more here . Sadly, every aspect of our society reiterates 'if you don't fit in rigid gender roles, there's something wrong with you'. I understand this young person only too well, it's so sad that in order to solve the internalised guilt and shame of not fitting in, they've come to the misogynistic solution that because they don't want to perform stereotyped and repressive femininity and want to be treated as human first and foremost then they must really be male.

Excellent post Noverusername.

Novelusername