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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Stonewall gave bad advice to university

18 replies

TheFleegleHasLanded · 20/05/2021 05:04

Good to see this picked up by The Times
www.thetimes.co.uk/article/2bc11fae-b8d6-11eb-9a91-c8c89595f50e?shareToken=01f946a7b7726f680e630fdedb241a32

OP posts:
TheFleegleHasLanded · 20/05/2021 05:15

Mentioned again in the Scottish section
www.thetimes.co.uk/article/38a27004-b8ec-11eb-98e3-d1306649ebf7?shareToken=588404cbf0563045bec7687910cd4adf

OP posts:
Ritasueandbobtoo9 · 20/05/2021 05:20

I think Stonewall has an agenda which which they are pursuing and the actual law or actual equality does not feature in that agenda.

MidsomerMurmurs · 20/05/2021 07:38

[quote TheFleegleHasLanded]Mentioned again in the Scottish section
www.thetimes.co.uk/article/38a27004-b8ec-11eb-98e3-d1306649ebf7?shareToken=588404cbf0563045bec7687910cd4adf[/quote]
The headline is No sanctions for students who abused Edinburgh University senior lecturer online
So obviously I’d assume UCU would be all over this, defending Dr Thin in the face of this appalling behaviour from students and university management. No?

Ereshkigalangcleg · 20/05/2021 07:55

Liz Ward of Stonewall said: “Our advice on the Equality Act is based on guidance provided by the Equality and Human Rights Commission, which was recently reaffirmed in the High Court.”

In what sense? Here we are talking about this specific Stonewall advice:

In particular, it should consider that this relationship appears to have given university members the impression that gender critical academics can legitimately be excluded from the institution.”

And the intervention by the EHRC themselves in Maya Forstater's case shows this interpretation is at least disputed if not unlawful, so therefore bad advice to institutions.

morningtoncrescent62 · 20/05/2021 08:27

The share tokens aren't working for me - is it just me?

Babdoc · 20/05/2021 08:53

The comments are really heartening. Stonewall is taking a pasting!

Justme56 · 20/05/2021 09:14

If anyone is interested Sexmatters are calling for a public enquiry. They are asking people to sign their letter asap.

WhoNeedsaManOfTheWorld · 20/05/2021 09:18

The share tokens here don't work for me but the same articles are shared on other threads and have worked there for me

RoyalCorgi · 20/05/2021 09:21

Any idea which High Court case Liz Ward is talking about? Because I can't think of any High Court case where the EHRC has claimed the two things deemed false in the Essex report, namely that "hate crime" consists of saying nasty things about people and that "gender identity" is a protected characteristic in the Equality Act.

And in fact, it's quite easy to go to the relevant legislation and check for yourself. Both those claims are very clearly not true.

334bu · 20/05/2021 09:28

Share tokens worked for me.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 20/05/2021 09:33

I presume she's extrapolating from the Ann Sinnott preliminary hearing. Which is a bit desperate.

heathspeedwell · 20/05/2021 09:47

Share tokens were a bit random yesterday too, I suspect the Times has a glitch. Might be worth trying again after a short break?

Imnobody4 · 20/05/2021 10:21

The comments are excellent , haven't seen a Stonewall apologist yet.

ClingFilmAndGafferTape · 20/05/2021 10:33

God I've just seen this morning that my university have signed up to Stonewall’s Diversity Champions Programme.

jhuizinga · 20/05/2021 10:51

I'm very glad to see this in the Times. I wonder if it's been prompted by all the comments in yesterday's paper pointing out that the article on the University of Essex apologising missed out one of the most important aspects of the story. The response from Stonewall is woeful.

altforvarmt · 20/05/2021 11:06

Liz Ward of Stonewall said: “Our advice on the Equality Act is based on guidance provided by the Equality and Human Rights Commission, which was recently reaffirmed in the High Court.”

I find it fascinating that they are claiming their advice is based on EHRC guidance, in the same month that their CEO was a signatory in a letter about how disappointed they are in the EHRC.

They can't have it both ways, surely?

justicewomen · 20/05/2021 11:18

Stonewall are being disingenuous in their quote .The recent High Court case brought by Ann Sinnott related to a very small section of EHRC guidance in the Code of practice on use of single sex exceptions. The criticism of Stonewall by the Reindorf Report are much broader and wider.

The full details of the High Court case explained here: legalfeminist.org.uk/2021/05/10/aea-v-ehrc-an-explanation/

"....was it arguable that the EHRC’s guidance was so wrong as to be unlawful.

He decided it was not, for the following reasons:

On the first argument, he agreed that the COP said “should,” not “must.” He pointed out that the guidance extends to just four paragraphs and is intended to be a brief summary not a detailed legal analysis. After “should” comes the disclaimer “However,” followed by an explanation of where exclusion will be reasonable. Although it is not detailed, it is not intended to be an exhaustive guide.
He also agreed that if there are public bodies which have understood a ‘should’ as a ‘must,’ these are capable of challenge by individual service users to individual service providers, whether inclusive or exclusive. We look at this below.
On the second argument, he agreed with the EHRC that even if a service has met the first requirement by showing it needs to be a single or separate sex service in order to exclude men, nevertheless, it must also meet the second requirement to exclude transwomen where necessary.
It may well be that a service needs to be female only, but the variation in presentations of transwomen from someone who is ‘visually indistinguishable’ to someone who has only just announced an intention to transition, and the variation in needs of the service users from a rape crisis centre to a changing room with partitioned cubicles, mean that there cannot be the certainty advanced by the Claimant.
In respect of the third argument, the judge agreed that physical appearance is relevant. This is unfortunate. Someone who is genuinely visually indistinguishable will be unlikely to cause challenge or consternation on accessing a SSS, even if they should choose to do so. Focus on a person’s physical appearance is likely to be experienced as demeaning by both the subject and the person required to make the assessment."

So basically the fight is moved onto individual service users challenging services... which itself isn't helpful

Beamur · 20/05/2021 11:19

The EHRC whose Chair has said women must be heard on transgender issues? Without being called transphobic bigots?That one?

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