Pronouns and Safeguarding

[ThomasPenman]

If children are taught to use opposite sex pronouns it reduces my ability as a parent to safeguard them. I'm thinking about how differently I'd react to hearing the following from my daughters:

'That cleaner was getting in the way when we were changing for PE again. She's always mopping the floor when we finish PE'
vs
'That cleaner was getting in the way when we were changing for PE again. He's always mopping the floor when we finish PE'

That’s a point isn’t it?

Or in my case (on residential school trip, P7)

‘X came into the girls dorms to check we were all in bed. She flipped the sheep’s to make sure we weren’t hiding books or snacks’

‘Mary fell on her bottom when we were ice skating! X rubbed her bottom for a while until it felt better. She’s a doctor!’

X was a dad on the school trip. Even at that age we thought X was a bit...

Sheets sheets! There were no sheep in the room

That is an extremely good point op.

I'm pretty sure that's a feature, not a bug OP

Yes, this has always really really concerned me too. I shall watch this thread with interest. In addition to the biggest issue of safeguarding, it’s also monumental gaslighting.

@toffeebutterpopcorn

Or in my case (on residential school trip, P7)

‘X came into the girls dorms to check we were all in bed. She flipped the sheep’s to make sure we weren’t hiding books or snacks’

‘Mary fell on her bottom when we were ice skating! X rubbed her bottom for a while until it felt better. She’s a doctor!’

X was a dad on the school trip. Even at that age we thought X was a bit...

I don’t think Mary should be flipping anybody’s sheets, tbh. Mary sounds a bit odd.

Same applies to

"We have a new girl in our class. She is a really fast runner."

Well yes its obvious. Sadly most organisations respond as if you are making making personal allegation against all trans people as opposed to pointing out the loophole that could be exploited by any individual regardless of whether or not they are trans.

They also mention strict safeguarding measures but fail to say what these extra safeguarding measures and what happens when the first layer if safeguarding, ie same sex supervising whilst changing, is removed.

No... the dad (the hypothetical ‘she’) was flipping sheets and rubbing bottoms. We were only 10/11 but had an inkling that this was the type of man your mam warned you about.

Safguarding also is there to protect staff from allegations.

So it also places staff I'm situations they shouldn't be in and leaves them wide open to all sorts of accusations.

@Whatwouldscullydo

Safguarding also is there to protect staff from allegations.

So it also places staff I'm situations they shouldn't be in and leaves them wide open to all sorts of accusations.

Really good point.

Also, secondary to safeguarding, it’s just plain confusing for young children, and really unfair if they are ever reprimanded for ‘misgendering’.

Also, secondary to safeguarding, it’s just plain confusing for young children, and really unfair if they are ever reprimanded for ‘misgendering’

Yes I think leaving children without anyone they can trust, and they will not trust staff or helpers or any adult or child really who is not truthful about something they can physically see with their own eyes , is incredibly dangerous.

its intentional- to get children and women to over-ride their instincts.

I can also imagine situations where children might not know a teacher and might call out 'miss' or 'sir' only to get into trouble for misgendering. This would feel awfully unfair.

Not to mention autistic children and those with other Lds and SNs who jut physically would not be able to lie. What would happen with them.

The sheet flipping and bottom rubbing are a concern no matter what genitalia the adult has. The cleaning while changing for PE would also ring bells if repeated even by a she.

Yes it's a safeguarding issue. The central thread, as ever, being the risk that men pose. Teaching children that they cannot accurately describe the sex of people is a huge risk.

And the term male doesn't cut it, either. Because that does not differentiate between child and adult.

@helpfulperson

The sheet flipping and bottom rubbing are a concern no matter what genitalia the adult has. The cleaning while changing for PE would also ring bells if repeated even by a she.

This was in the 70s and he was a ‘respectable pillar of the community - and a doctor’. Nothing would have happened and no doubt us girls would have got a row for besmirching his good name ...

The sheet flipping and bottom rubbing are a concern no matter what genitalia the adult has. The cleaning while changing for PE would also ring bells if repeated even by a she

Yes it would however at least when you spot someone male going into a space designated fir women and girls then you can stop them. The attempt to enter the space is the first warning and the chance to stop them is a first line of defence.

The results if them entering that space can be stopped before they happen.

Yes u then have a situation where a woman could enter and do something but just because we can't stop a woman from entering that space as she has a right to he there, that doesn't mean we should overlook everything else.

no matter what genitalia the adult has.

Sex isn't just a matter of genitalia.

Is there a reason you've phrased it as though it is?

I was always told when I was small if I got lost to find a lady with children...

You are not wrong.

Pronouns are Rohypnol

I think I've not explained my point well. In the case of the sheets, bottom rubbing and cleaning during PE changing alarm bells would ring whatever pronouns a child used about the adults involved. I accept that in other situations it may change how something is perceived, just not those two.

The difference is helpful that alarm bells would have rung at the door with a male.

The rest of it wouldn't have happened.