Does this gender match this birth sex?

[CardinalLolzy]

Countless organisations, documents (such as the U of Essex report referenced in another thread) and several posters on here have given as a definition of transgender as 'where your gender doesn't match your birth sex' (or gender identity, or sex assigned at birth, etc).

As there are 2 sexes and countless genders I try to ask whenever this is claimed what the list of matching pairs of sexes and genders are but afaik it has not been answered directly. I was wondering if the following is transgender or not:

Sex - female
Gender - woman

Those are two different words. Does this mean they don't match?

Or do they because there is some inherent overlap between being a woman and being female? We are told birth sex (let's stick to the terms male and female, for clarity) is unrelated to gender, so in that case what exactly is the overlap?

Or a third option might be that 'woman' isn't a gender.

Would be interested to hear from people who have put forward this definition of trans, as it's something that niggles me and I can't quite get my head around the concept of separate conceptual things 'matching'. To give a rubbish metaphor, to me it's like asking if 'left' and 'west' match.

If you disagree with this definition of transgender and go by one that doesn't involve 'matching' I'd be interested to hear it.

Sex = female
Woman = adult human female.

Woman = separates me from adult human males, known as men, and other forms of animals who are also adult females - sow, cow, hen, lioness, pen etc.

Gender = stereotypes that we should be abolishing, not entrenching.

@UppityPuppity

Sex = female Woman = adult human female.

Woman = separates me from adult human males, known as men, and other forms of animals who are also adult females - sow, cow, hen, lioness, pen etc.

Gender = stereotypes that we should be abolishing, not entrenching.

That's exactly what I was going to say.

There seems to be this push to remove the word 'woman' from biology, but it is the adjective to describe an adult human female, as opposed to an adult female cow or sheep etc. It's still very much tied to biology, it's not a gender, it's not an 'identity' - that concept just reinforces stereotypes about women.

I didn't think TRAs agree that woman = adult human female, so I guess I'm asking them whether a person whose sex is female and gender is woman is trans or not, under their own understanding of which genders match which sexes, which is essential to the definition of transgender.

I think it was Shizuku on here who kept giving this definition but couldn't clarify it - but they're not the only one who uses it.

Either woman means female (which is apparently transphobic to believe) or woman doesn't mean female and the person described in the OP would be trans, or there is some other interpretation of 'woman'. I'm just trying to follow the logic.

I'm just trying to follow the logic.

Good luck with that!

Good question. Keen to see answers.

Great post OP.

I like your thinking. As far as I can see genderists use

female = bio sex
female = a gender identity that may or may not match bio sex
woman = a person with a gender identity of female

The degree to which the gender identity matches biological sex is where words like cisgender, transgender and all the 100+ others come in.

The gender identity may be something other than male or female, whatever it is is to be believed unquestioningly, unless you are a gender critical feminists in which case you are definitely cisgender.

@Leafstamp

I'm just trying to follow the logic.

Good luck with that!

This! It is all about belief, not logic.

But I'd also say that, as predicted, the word female is increasingly used for gender as well as sex. Thus making it easier for believers in gender ID (who aren't necessarily trans themselves, I'm not generalising) to claim the category of sex is now redundant.

I wonder about just embracing the term Karen as it's the one word for woman that I've never seen used to describe a male.

It is an interesting Q though. I hope someone who believes in gender ID comes and gives you an answer in good faith.

It's all about the feelz, though, so good luck with matching anything!

Right, so if gender is a feeling and bio sex is an observable thing, how can they ever match? I can't be the only person to have wondered this? Yet it's an accepted definition of what being transgender is.

I didn't think TRAs agree that woman = adult human female, so I guess I'm asking them whether a person whose sex is female and gender is woman is trans or not, under their own understanding of which genders match which sexes, which is essential to the definition of transgender.

I think you're right but is it OK to say that I, you and indeed most people disagree with them? Is it OK to say this whole ideology is built on the fallacious belief that having a gender identity is a norm?

Right, so if gender is a feeling and bio sex is an observable thing, how can they ever match? I can't be the only person to have wondered this? Yet it's an accepted definition of what being transgender is.

I agree here too. I am a woman, I doubt I 'feel' like any other woman or that they 'feel' like each other. If we consider gender an 'identity' than there are many gender identities are there are people rendering the term meaningless. I find the idea that I will 'feel' the same as other women just because we are women actually quite offensive and hence the idea that someone 'feels like a woman' derogatory.

I wonder about just embracing the term Karen as it's the one word for woman that I've never seen used to describe a male.

Ha! Good plan

(Although I bet there’s a drag queen called Karen L Knowledge or something.)

When my sister turned 30, 2 years after me, I asked her, 'Do you feel 30?'
She said, 'Well I am thirty and this is how I feel so I must do'. Always pops into my head with discussions like this.

I’m starting to think that ‘Are you wrong about your sex?’ would make as much sense as anything else.

Transwomen are transitioning out of privilege and into oppression. Transmen are transitioning out of and into both privilege and oppression. The two journeys cancel each other out and that’s why they are nowhere near as brave or as special.

OP you raise a good point.
The very idea of something "matching" seems to be counter to the ideology. Otherwise surely we would be allowed to say woman have vaginas, periods etc.

I think “match” is being used here as meaning the correlation that is seen in the vast majority of cases, and that is seen as ‘natural’ or as the default by society. Most people who are born biologically female grow up to consider themselves to be women, and to conform in various ways with what is expected of women (in terms of aspects of appearance over which we have a degree of control).

Therefore, if a person is born biologically female (and is therefore registered as female on their birth certificate) but at a later point comes to identify as something other than a girl or woman (eg as a boy or man, or as non-binary) then their gender doesn’t match the sex they were registered/assigned at birth - in the sense that it is not what would be usually be expected or regarded as the ‘natural’ default.

Most people who are born biologically female grow up to consider themselves to be women, and to conform in various ways with what is expected of women (in terms of aspects of appearance over which we have a degree of control).

But what does 'consider themselves to be women' mean? What is it that they consider themselves to be? Adult female humans?

And what is it that is 'expected of women' that they conform to? Do you mean the expectations due to their sex?

The problem with your argument is that you first need a definition of what a woman is. What definition are you using?

As the trans ideology demands that people be labelled, and has no hesitancy assigning labels to people, is it relevant to them what the individual thinks or how they feel about the label? If a woman is sufficiently gender non-conforming, by trans ideology she is trans. Therefore beer-drinking, assertive, butch, lesbian Sam the engineer is trans - whatever she says about herself. Even if Sam says she is an adult female human woman - it just confirms to them her internalised transphobia.

Helen8220 - but is that sort of view about what's "normal" or "correct" the sort of thing that should be on a form?

And what if a majority of adult human females in a community decide they're "non-binary" or "trans men"? Do the non-binary women then tick "yes" to "match" because most females are non-binary, so non-binary now matches their birth sex? And the non-non-binary women tick "no", because they're a minority?

Or what if just the individual themselves thinks that for them their gender of "woman" matches their birth sex of "male" fine? Do they tick "yes" because they think it's a match or do they have to tick "no" because apparently others don't?

What a frigging mess. Could we possibly stick forms to asking factual questions based on clear definitions with clear answers? Please?

Maybe we could do other questions like this - "Does your race match your nationality?"

Right, so if gender is a feeling and bio sex is an observable thing, how can they ever match?

What this boils down to is, how does a man "feel female"?

There is no sensible answer because it doesn't make sense.

There is no consistency within trans. Some trans people say that gender is a feeling, but not all. Take the transwomen who reject self ID: they know that they are male, but that they are happier performing femininity.

I am not trying to denigrate them by using that expression BTW. They recognise that they cannot be female, the nearest they can get to this is doing things that they connect to being female, whether that's behaviour, dress or body modification. It's no different to me wearing Spanx under a dress because I feel more confident when my empty handbag flap is reined in. Both are performances of femininity that do not change our sex, but make us feel better about ourselves.

What I'm trying to say is that gender is not just an internal feeling, it's also performance - stereotypes. If gendered behaviour is more observable than sex (and we know that filters, whether photoshop or male brain, can hide sex) then it may be given greater weight.