Do you feel more disappointed in women

[Soubriquet]

I’m watching something called I am all girls that is based on a true life story of trafficking of young children.

I always feel disgust when I see the men involved, but I the feel disappointment when I see women are involved in the trafficking of children, knowing exactly what happens to them.

I know it’s silly, but I just feel “how could you?”

I think it's that same feeling that makes people angrier with female criminals even if their role was a lot less- thinking of Maxine Carr, for example. She lied to protect Ian Huntley but there's no proof that she knew he was guilty. She had no predatory record afaik, unlike him. Nonetheless she was really hated. Would a man have been?

No I guess not

I mean I see your point and I completely understand what you mean

Is this internalised misogyny, or just frustration that we are happy to go along with the men despite knowing it’s affecting innocent children?

There's also the narrative that women are kind, gently, caring, so therefore shouldn't be capable of inflicting such harm on others especially children. Women are held to much higher standards than men, I can understand this to a degree as we all know the rates of violence perpetrated by men is much higher than by women, so I suppose it naturally follows society is shocked by women who commit these crimes.
But yes I agree that when I see women connected to this it 'feels' worse.

I guess to some extent many people feel women have not so much of the drives that lead men to do these things, or think they are more empathetic?

I don't, particularly, myself - while I think men are more inclined to express their negative traits with violence, I don't think they are more likely to be bad ad selfish. So in general I don't think worse of women who are criminals.

I do sometimes however feel a little differently about women who traffic kids sometimes, mainly when they themselves are mothers.

There are people of course who have themselves been treated as commodities their whole lives and go on to treat others that way too. But it seems like if anything could break that cycle, or soften up a sociopath, it might be the experience of being a mother. When it doesn't, the lack of feeling seems particularly stark, though I would think that objectively it's no worse than many men of a similar type.

I also understand that some of these women who are involved in the trafficking were actually trafficked themselves so are stuck in a hostage type situation

@NotTerfNorCis

I think it's that same feeling that makes people angrier with female criminals even if their role was a lot less- thinking of Maxine Carr, for example. She lied to protect Ian Huntley but there's no proof that she knew he was guilty. She had no predatory record afaik, unlike him. Nonetheless she was really hated. Would a man have been?

I think Maxine Carr was afraid of Huntley, and believed his lies re why he needed an alibi.

I think that society holds women to higher standards than men, especially when it comes to keeping children safe. It's not just how women involved in crimes are thought of- but how often do we see mothers talked about for the way they look after their children but no mention of the father taking no responsibility.

It's also part of the narrative that somehow men can't really help themselves when they are abusive. Clearly utter bollocks but it makes it easier to let them off the hook.

I see the same when women choose drugs or a relationship over their children. Men do it in droves so it's shocking when women do it. It should be bloody shocking when anyone does it.

Yes. It’s like when a woman becomes the NRP and let’s the father be the RP.

He is put on a pedestal and lorded about and she’s called all sorts of names for abandoning their child yet if it’s the other way around, no one bats an eyelid

As women are held to higher standards and demonized harder for the same (or lesser, or even no involvement at all) crimes, I don't think it's ever a perplexed "how could she", I would suspect it's invariably an outraged "how dare she".

For reference, see the response of the media and society to the mother or wife of most serial rapists or killers.

@purpleboy

There's also the narrative that women are kind, gently, caring, so therefore shouldn't be capable of inflicting such harm on others especially children. Women are held to much higher standards than men, I can understand this to a degree as we all know the rates of violence perpetrated by men is much higher than by women, so I suppose it naturally follows society is shocked by women who commit these crimes. But yes I agree that when I see women connected to this it 'feels' worse.

The idea that women are nicer and better than men suits feminists when it suits - e.g the frequent posts on here about how great it would be to live in an all female society; motherhood being put up on a pedestal; posters wishing they were lesbians.

When women do something awful, there's always apologists making excuses. E.g Hindley and Rose West would not have done what they did if they hadn't met those awful men. Zero evidence of that for Hindley- who knows Brady might not have done it if he hadn't met her and West was a sexual predator and abuser long before she met Fred.

I judge female pro- punter lobbyists more than male. I think there may well be men who have no intention of using prostitutes, haven't really thought about the issues but who take the "sex work is empowering" claptrap at face value because it's women who are telling them. Women should know better.

I think that society holds women to higher standards than men, especially when it comes to keeping children safe

It's not just some vague notion of "society". Posters on here constantly put women up on pedestals about how much nicer, safer, kinder they are.

I judge female pro- punter lobbyists more than male. I think there may well be men who have no intention of using prostitutes, haven't really thought about the issues but who take the "sex work is empowering" claptrap at face value because it's women who are telling them. Women should know better.

Yes, I think this is true. Some men will just follow the lead they see from women around them, or even conclude that since women seem to differ they don't need to have an opinion. On a range of issues where it seems to be mainly something that affects women.

We need only look at the Gareeca Gordon case to see that some people will refuse to believe that women could be violent or criminal. Even though she was blatantly female, people were still claiming she was a man ‘because women don’t use circular saws’. When there is irrefutable proof of a woman doing something bad, it feels worse because of a belief that all women are inherently good.

This podcast was very interesting on this subject.

play.acast.com/s/historyextra/whyarewefascinatedby-evilwomen-

This tendency pisses me off so much. Goes without saying it's much more serious way it reminds me of school when some boys would be violent, loud, disruptive constantly and be more or less ignored, but when a girl did the same, especially a usually well behaved one, teachers would come down like a tonne of bricks. Basically being male is the biggest predictor of violence, and "we" then use that to roll up the idea of violence with the idea of maleness, so when a women is violent "we're" disappointed in her for not only being violent but for "going against nature".

Partly it's because there are waaay fewer women so their names get remembered.

Personally I don't feel "disappointed" because I realise that a) the expectation that women are inherently peaceful is a tool of the patriarchy (not that I'm advocating we all commit crimes) b) you know that for every woman doing XYZ there are literally thousands and thousands of men.

I do also wonder if this is the same reason why (in my experience/those around me) women are much harder on their female children than their male children? We expect other women to be "just like us" and judge them harshly just as we may judge ourselves (or more so) rather than assuming they have some kind of hidden male factor X that is making them act this way.

I don't expect women to be better people than men. We're not some kind of higher being - we're human with all the potential for greatness and vileness and mediocrity that this entails. There are probably just as many women whom I dislike as men.

I do however expect them to be more clued up than men about what it's like to be a woman and what shit we're up against sometimes. Maybe that's unfair of me but there it is - they have to live it and men don't. So yes there are times when I'm more disappointed.

I think it’s the level of betrayal that feels so shocking. As a child, I knew not to go anywhere with a strange man. But I would have trusted a woman. Myra Hindley, Rosemary West — I understand why a child would think s/he was safe with them.

@NotTerfNorCis

I think it's that same feeling that makes people angrier with female criminals even if their role was a lot less- thinking of Maxine Carr, for example. She lied to protect Ian Huntley but there's no proof that she knew he was guilty. She had no predatory record afaik, unlike him. Nonetheless she was really hated. Would a man have been?

This is true. A man would never have been demonised in the same way for lying to give his female partner an alibi

@thinkingaboutLangCleg

I think it’s the level of betrayal that feels so shocking. As a child, I knew not to go anywhere with a strange man. But I would have trusted a woman. Myra Hindley, Rosemary West — I understand why a child would think s/he was safe with them.

I mean, it's actually not unreasonable as far as it goes. If you have to ask for help from a stranger, all things being equal a woman is a safer bet. She might fleece you, or be a jerk, but se probably won't mug you or rape you.

So it is more of a genuine surprise when women do certain things, like cutting people up with a circular saw.

@MissBarbary

I think that society holds women to higher standards than men, especially when it comes to keeping children safe

It's not just some vague notion of "society". Posters on here constantly put women up on pedestals about how much nicer, safer, kinder they are.

Because they are. Statistics show this clearly, men are much more dangerous than women.