Dr Shanna Swan - hormone disruptors

[MondayYogurt]

I recently read an article on Dr Swan's hormone research www.theguardian.com/society/2021/mar/28/shanna-swan-fertility-reproduction-count-down

Which lead me to listen to her on this podcast:
open.spotify.com/episode/6pLW2tMx4Kw5qaeAcxj0Lj

I'd really recommend listening to it because she discusses measurable methods of ascertaining hormone disruption in humans.

We talk all the time on here about gender and sex, but what I gather is that phthalates are clearly shown to be impacting our bodies (both children and adults), and specifically our sexual functions.

It's not a huge step to wonder if the growing numbers of gender confused children and adults may be the result of the pollution of our food, air and water systems by these chemicals.

It's not a huge step to wonder if the growing numbers of gender confused children and adults may be the result of the pollution of our food, air and water systems by these chemicals.

I don't know of any evidence that people who are confused about 'gender' have any signs of hormonal abnormalities.

But if hormones were responsible, I don't think we'd see the current pattern of which sexes and age groups are most affected (young children - still mainly male, teenagers - mainly female, middle aged people - nearly all male). Why would these specific groups be affected and not more teenage boys and middle aged women?

Gender confusion in children is totally socially driven. Schools and social media putting the idea into their heads that they have a gender identity which is more important than their sex. Social contagion in teenage girls. That which must not be talked about in heterosexual middle aged men. Hormonal disruption doesn't seem a likely cause here.

I would have thought that the impact on our bodies from this pollution is more likely to affect fertility and hormone related disease such as some cancers.

Gender confusion in children is totally socially driven. Schools and social media putting the idea into their heads that they have a gender identity which is more important than their sex. Social contagion in teenage girls. That which must not be talked about in heterosexual middle aged men. Hormonal disruption doesn't seem a likely cause here

THIS.

I realise that looking for a physical reason behind some*gender confusion goes against the prevailing sentiment on MN. Hence of course this will get shot down.

But listening to a woman who has studied hormone disrupting chemicals for over 20 years won't hurt. I admire her continued efforts in trying to discuss something almost no one wants to hear.

*not all

Also agree. Completely. No question that it is socially driven.

@MondayYogurt

I recently read an article on Dr Swan's hormone research www.theguardian.com/society/2021/mar/28/shanna-swan-fertility-reproduction-count-down

Which lead me to listen to her on this podcast:
open.spotify.com/episode/6pLW2tMx4Kw5qaeAcxj0Lj

I'd really recommend listening to it because she discusses measurable methods of ascertaining hormone disruption in humans.

We talk all the time on here about gender and sex, but what I gather is that phthalates are clearly shown to be impacting our bodies (both children and adults), and specifically our sexual functions.

It's not a huge step to wonder if the growing numbers of gender confused children and adults may be the result of the pollution of our food, air and water systems by these chemicals.

So how do you explain all the middle-aged men now identifying as women while, as far as I'm aware, there's virtually no traffic in the opposite direction?

I can understand the perspective but it doesn't mean than reduced or increased hormones "makes" you one sex or the other of you're either xx or xy.

It's actually another sexist stereotype.

Yes it's really impacting hormonal development but that impacts fertility.

Not identity. Or you're actual sex.

We may see more men with fertility and health issues and more women with fertility and hormonal balance issues; ultimately this is a fertility and health issue.

It's actually crossing over into the "appropriate intersex condition area" and is inappropriate.

Or, indeed, the fact that the biggest increase in young people identifying as trans is among girls and young women? Why would phthalates affect teenage girls and middle aged men disproportionately?

You will experience pushback because lots of us have been experiencing and studying and debating this issue for years and we're slightly better informed than the average member of the public. If the theory you propound is useful and correct, you'll be able to argue bac

So how do you explain all the middle-aged men now identifying as women while, as far as I'm aware, there's virtually no traffic in the opposite direction?

It's not black and white. Just because hormone disrupting chemicals in foetuses may somehow explain gender confused children (and Dr Swan at no point posits this) doesn't mean that social contagion and other issues can't explain late MtF transitioners.

I'm merely suggesting a podcast. At no point have I said HERE ALL OF YOU ARE WRONG AND BEING TRANS IS 100% BECAUSE OF CHEMICALS.

If the podcast isn't up your street she's also written a book. blackwells.co.uk/bookshop/product/9781982113667?gC=5a105e8b&gclid=CjwKCAjwqIiFBhAHEiwANg9szkXaSmM80nWLlhUyK1Vk6G6Dus1Y0tR9Z6HZP7K0LWc071EXI2fvPxoCCX4QAvD_BwE

I will listen to this OP, not because I think there is a link to trans, but because I believe it is important to women’s health.

Thanks for the link.

No problem with supporting further research into whether phthalates may play a very small role in some peoples' adoption of gender ideology/ identity. Who knows, there may be something in it.

But that's a long way from your opening post, which concluded:
It's not a huge step to wonder if the growing numbers of gender confused children and adults may be the result of the pollution of our food, air and water systems by these chemicals

I'm not a scientist but I suspect it's a massive speculative step to jump from what's widely acknowledged to be a social contagion to blaming pollution.

I’ve often wondered if the huge increase in transdentified people was something to do with environmental factors such as food/water/pollution etc so I think she possibly has some good points, however, as everyone else upthread has already pointed out, nothing accounts for the differences in demographics. Unless of course teenage girls bodies react in a different way to these outside influences than teenage boys and adults. And especially autistic teenage girls.
I really wish someone was allowed to look into the different demographics of people with gender dysphoria and try to find out what’s really behind it. My moneys on social contagion.

So how do you explain all the middle-aged men now identifying as women while, as far as I'm aware, there's virtually no traffic in the opposite direction?

It is my understanding that males may be more susceptible to these kinds of effects effects than females.

I will say that as a gut feeling this doesn't see likely to be the main link to me. But it is something worth keeping in mind.

It is interesting from a health perspective generally though.

Thanks, OP, I am interested in the effects of hormone disruptors.

It is my understanding that males may be more susceptible to these kinds of effects effects than females.

Except she's talking about a rise in these chemicals in the last 40 years and its effect on fertility. A heterosexual man who starts identifying as transgender in middle age after fathering children doesn't seem to have been affected by this.

But if transgender people had abnormal levels of hormones in their blood, this could be measured. As could markers like AGD which she talks about in the article.

Disruption of hormones in the womb may result in changes to physical attributes like DSDs and future fertility. It is pure speculation to suggest that it could affect the way a person (with no obvious or diagnosed physical effects from the hormone exposure) behaves and responds to societal pressures and norms.

@OldCrone

It is my understanding that males may be more susceptible to these kinds of effects effects than females.

Except she's talking about a rise in these chemicals in the last 40 years and its effect on fertility. A heterosexual man who starts identifying as transgender in middle age after fathering children doesn't seem to have been affected by this.

But if transgender people had abnormal levels of hormones in their blood, this could be measured. As could markers like AGD which she talks about in the article.

Disruption of hormones in the womb may result in changes to physical attributes like DSDs and future fertility. It is pure speculation to suggest that it could affect the way a person (with no obvious or diagnosed physical effects from the hormone exposure) behaves and responds to societal pressures and norms.

Yes, my comment on this was deleted, but basically I agree, don't think that this sort of thing is likely about hormone disruption.

But we might expect different effects on males and females if there was something along those lines going on.

Well, it would be a piece of piss to take a cohort from each section, toddler children, teenage children, and middle-aged adults, and test their hormones, wouldn't it?

The thing is, if a teen in this country is referred to an endocrinologist by GIDS with a view to being prescribed puberty blockers ‘ cross sex hormones, the first thing that happens is they are given blood tests to ascertain the levels of their sex hormones. So if what you’re posturing is correct, this would have been big news as those abnormal levels would have shown up right at the beginning of the medical transition process. The fact that nothing has been brought to light, no connection has been made between ‘gender confused’ teens and unusual hormone levels just shows that there’s no link.

@Soontobe60: Prenatal exposure to phthalates is thought to affect neurodevelopment, & Bisphenol A mimics oestrogen - not sure if it would show up in blood tests not designed to detect it, or if it would have a knock-on effect on levels of other hormones.

How does the hormone know that, at this time and place, girls have long hair and wear pink?

@WhoNeedsaManOfTheWorld, it doesn't, but there are some studies suggesting that exposure to higher androgen levels in the womb correlates with a higher propensity to more stereotypically boyish behaviour and toy preferences. If that's true, there's a mechanism that could link hormone disruptors to gender non-conforming behaviour.

Of course any link between gender non-conforming behaviour & a child's confusion about his or her "gender identity" is down to grown-ups.

@WhoNeedsaManOfTheWorld

How does the hormone know that, at this time and place, girls have long hair and wear pink?

I think there is some reason to think that while we know nothing like that happens where ther eis some kind of innate attraction to pink, people are very interested in patterns, and lots of things like sex, wealth, power, marital status, can be communicated through social signals like clothing. We pick up on those patterns unconsciously (and consciously too in most cases) and many people seek to express their place, or sometimes improve it, though that kind of signalling.