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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Terrified of regressive modern feminism

1000 replies

TRHR · 10/05/2021 13:14

By saying "you can't be a woman if you're born without a vagina, and if you're born with a vagina you must be a woman" you're making reproductive organs the defining and most important characteristic of being a woman. This attitude was used to oppress women for centuries. We were baby makers only, and hormonal and chromosomal differences were used to say that we were too "emotional " for public life, education and jobs. Only over the last 100 or so years have our minds and emotions been rightfully recognised as just as important as our vaginas. GC is now going back to seeing our sex organs as our most important identifier and as a feminist and a young woman this really scares me. It is playing right into the traditional patriarchy, is sexist, regressive and oppressive. The fact its being done in the name of 'feminism ' terrifies me. The recent historic implications of insisting women are defined by their bodies scares me. These views are still held by conservative (often religion based) communities and we've all seen how easy it is for these groups to gain power - feminists shouldn't be helping them justify their attitudes or behaviour.

If you've seen/read the Handmaid's Tale you'll know what attitudes I'm afraid of. GCs ironically tell TRAs they are 'handmaids' when actually it is their attitude that has historically led to the oppression that Attwood (who is trans inclusive) bases her books on.

Gender is not a set of stereotypes - it's an identity based on culture, history, society , psychology and often (but not always) sex. It's far more freeing than "vagina = woman" and takes account of each of us as individuals not just bodies, which is what feminism up until now has fought for.
As an example, many trans women don't wear "girly " clothes, they identify as "masculine/butch" lesbians. Many trans men still like wearing make up and dresses e.g. in drag.
Many people would say the world shouldn't be defined as 'male / female' at all. But it always has done, that won't be changed in our lifetime. So seen as that is our social structure, it's oppressive to police how people choose to move through life under this structure based on bodies.
Thanks for reading this far and if I get one extra person to consider the harm that GC is doing, especially to young women of child bearing age, it'll be worth the condescension and vitriol that this post will inevitably receive.

OP posts:
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NiceGerbil · 13/05/2021 19:47

Erm just a thought

She and her mean female. He and him mean male.

If you argue that they are for gender not sex. So they relate to your internal gender.

Then what are people who are not under the trans umbrella to do?

Do we have to all be they/ them?

PurgatoryOfPotholes · 13/05/2021 19:48

So a classmate has chosen some neo-pronouns to reflect wombstress gender-identity, and the twitter person is still calling wombstress "cis"?

Where is the respect? Surely wombstress knows who wombstress is better than twitter personage!

NewlyGranny · 13/05/2021 19:51

Such a shame. Almost as if someone came on being goady and demanding vitriol but has been left hugely disappointed. Where are the MN extremists they were promised?!

Nothing worth reporting or getting all aerated about at all. What is penis news going to put on its Twitter feed now?

We're such a let-down. Wait - is that out of line? It could refer to bf birthing parents!

ANewCreation · 13/05/2021 19:55

Also Aleksei:

"Like, I also have a uterus, but it doesn't define me"

WoolOfBat · 13/05/2021 19:59

I feel sorry for the wombstress they criticised on Twitter....There she was, trying to get into this whole pronoun thing, really trying so hard to find a personal pronoun that she felt defined wombstress. And then they were all over wombstress and criticised wombstress for having rogue pronouns Sad.

Did anyone even ask wombstress if wombstress identified as cis? Sad

TheWeeDonkey · 13/05/2021 20:08

That thread is pure gold ANewCreation imagine having pronouns like ax eex aex zir in your bio and having the front to question someone else's pronouns. 😂

PaleBlueMoonlight · 13/05/2021 20:23

Bit late to say it three or so pages on, but CloudyMoments I too found your analysis of why some people might subscribe so completely to concepts of gender identity to be insightful and helpful. Thanks

allmywhat · 13/05/2021 22:33

Say we found an island...

Digression but this thread is now making me think of the Blue-Eyed Islander problem!
en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_knowledge_(logic)

It’s a headwrecking logic puzzle but also a very interesting way to think about social rules and taboos that require everyone to pretend that they don’t see or understand the screamingly obvious.

Okay, maybe not that much of a digression.

Findwen · 13/05/2021 22:43

Yes ! Thank you for bringing this up OP, in case you come back my pronouns are:

Hmmm / Cockalong

I am also terrified and really angry. Did you see the reporting today by the BBC of all groups talking about how supposedly terrified people are in the middle east with all the rocket attacks and air strikes on the civilian population ? What know they of terror ??? Modern feminism is far, far more panic inducing that such trivialities. When oh when will the BBC consider people like us ?

StrangeLookingParasite · 13/05/2021 22:44

Another absolutely brilliant post from Barracker, there!

HecatesCatsInFancyHats · 13/05/2021 22:59

Women are physically female in the same way blue-eyed people are physically blue-eyed.
Neither material fact is remotely an insult nor an insinuation of reduced humanity.

Yes Barracker! 👏👏👏

Rejoiningperson · 13/05/2021 23:19

I’m not normally on these boards. I’m very impressed with the rigorous and informative posts on here and wanted to say that I’ve learned a lot, even if there is no longer sign of the OP or others wanting to listen.

Some very stimulating and interesting points of view that have somewhat recharged my jaded view of feminism / women / debate. Thank you. It’s been a tough week in my personal life and you’ve all made me realise there is a lot of community good out there. Flowers (or is that too feminine? Wink )

Cleanandpress · 13/05/2021 23:29

twitter.com/runthinkwrite/status/1392769758072877060

An interesting thread.

Helen8220 · 14/05/2021 01:45

Rejoiningperson

There are some very good, very well made, patient, intelligent and respectful posts.

What stands out to me is that the OP or others with her point of view have not engaged with any of them.

I want to, I really do, but it’s hard to find the time, or to know where to start. Also, my past experience of taking the time to very carefully articulate what I believe about all this, and getting a large number of responses which are pretty hostile, patronising, and/or don’t engage in any meaningful way with what I’ve said, make it feel like a bit of a thankless task.

Helen8220 · 14/05/2021 01:47

Rejoiningperson

I’m not normally on these boards. I’m very impressed with the rigorous and informative posts on here and wanted to say that I’ve learned a lot, even if there is no longer sign of the OP or others wanting to listen.

I think the fact that I’m here diligently reading all the posts at 1.45am shows that some of us are still very much listening.

NiceGerbil · 14/05/2021 01:56

What's your view Helen?

The boards are pretty quiet at this time of night. I'll read and respond in good faith. (Obv only if you want to!)

Helen8220 · 14/05/2021 02:21

Thank you NiceGerbil, I appreciate that. I’m sorry not to take you up on it - I really need to go to sleep (and have been trying unsuccessfully for the last half hour, but I should keep trying). But i will try to come back and say more tomorrow.

NiceGerbil · 14/05/2021 02:24

Well hope you get to sleep soon!

Night Smile

Rejoiningperson · 14/05/2021 08:02

@Helen8220 I’d be interested in your view.

HecatesCatsInFancyHats · 14/05/2021 08:28

@Rejoiningperson

I’m not normally on these boards. I’m very impressed with the rigorous and informative posts on here and wanted to say that I’ve learned a lot, even if there is no longer sign of the OP or others wanting to listen.

Some very stimulating and interesting points of view that have somewhat recharged my jaded view of feminism / women / debate. Thank you. It’s been a tough week in my personal life and you’ve all made me realise there is a lot of community good out there. Flowers (or is that too feminine? Wink )

Welcome! Thanks
CloudyMoment · 14/05/2021 14:37

@TRHR

I actually wanted to come back and to engage with OP on some of the points made in the OP, that I do not understand. I do hope OP can come back to engage in good faith. I am not "officially GC" if that helps. I am trying to work out my position on this.

I see being a woman as my characteristic or attribute, similar to my hair or nationality.

I don't understand how a characteristic can be an "identity". It is certainly part or an aspect of my identity as a person, but not the defining "umbrella" definition.

In the OP you also say:

As an example, many trans women don't wear "girly " clothes, they identify as "masculine/butch" lesbians. Many trans men still like wearing make up and dresses e.g. in drag.

I struggle to understand this. If a person doesn't have a female presenting body AND/OR a doesn't present in a "feminine" way.. what exactly makes them a "woman"?

Personally I feel like a person. Take away my female body and take away my gender expression... I wouldn't "feel like a woman"... because there is nothing beyond that that makes me a woman. I am human first. I am not a woman, in all the other aspects of me. It's a forgettable aspect of me, unfortunately the world does not think so.

I'm only a woman only as far as I I am socially identified as one.

To draw a parallel:
I am only the nationality that I say I am, as long as I either have a passport of that nationality OR am culturally presenting as of that nationality OR have an ethnicity that allows me to claim that nationality (eg, one of my parents was French). People will of course debate this... and say someone without a French passport is not French, but I am expanding the definition to include all who have a potential claim of belonging to that group.

I cannot say I am French, if I don't have a French passport, OR I don't present French (act, speak, have knowledge of some of the customs), OR I don't have French heritage.

There is no way someone who is born in Germany, of German parents, who does not speak French, or has ever lived in France, can claim they are French. It just does't work that way.

To me saying that a "male presenting, physically male, and male acting" person "is a woman" just does not make logically sense... because there is no actual link to link them to the category of "woman". No characteristic, or physical attribute, or cultural inheritance.

Please explain how it works in your mind? Where is the link?

Many people would say the world shouldn't be defined as 'male / female' at all. But it always has done, that won't be changed in our lifetime. So seen as that is our social structure, it's oppressive to police how people choose to move through life under this structure based on bodies.

And what do you propose?

*If it is to "be policed" than based on what, if not bodies?

  • "Identity" ? That seems to be more restrictive, because it genders internal aspects of self, such as personality/presentation/ etc. To me how you present should not be really gendered. To demand that it is seen as gendered, is more oppressive. That as soon as you act in a non-stereotypical way, you will be assumed to be not of the gender you are. (just as butch lesbians if they like being called "sir").
  • If it is not to be "policed" (eg: "free gender identity access for all who wants to identity as such") Then what do you do about all those women who didn't choose to be women. I think this is the crux of the issue. As S d B said "one is not born a woman, one becomes one" . It is a process. White privileged, middle class women can "become a woman" ... but for many "becoming a woman" is something done to them. You are made into a woman through a long, long process of social gendering.

I think it is is offensive to assume that most women "chose to be women" or "choose to identify as women". There is very, very little choice in that for so many.

Basing the definition of woman on sex is basically accepting that reality -that there is very little choice in what body you are born into, and that based on that you will be subjected to different oppressive processes.

To me one of the most offensive aspects of the "be free to identify however you want to".. is that most of us don't get that choice. We cannot transgress our sex. We have to work with that reality. GC is not "reducing women to genitals". It is acknowledging that we are people first, who are oppressed differently based on what genitals we have. It's not endorsing this reality by any means. It is trying to change - but not through denying that it exists.

When you say:

By saying "you can't be a woman if you're born without a vagina, and if you're born with a vagina you must be a woman" you're making reproductive organs the defining and most important characteristic of being a woman.

You are making it sound as if "being a woman" is a desirable club that everyone should have a "right to get admission to", when it is not so.

It is a condition. Just like being short or tall is a condition of some humans. It has its good sides and its bad sides, but it is not something "you are".
It is something "you have to live with".

Blibbyblobby · 14/05/2021 15:18

I struggle to understand this. If a person doesn't have a female presenting body AND/OR a doesn't present in a "feminine" way.. what exactly makes them a "woman"?

I’m not the OP obviously, but from what I’m seeing and hearing: within the range of trans identities there’s a large contingent who identify as trans not because of what they are but because of what they are not. So for some trans women I think their path is something like “I definitely don’t feel like a man, l don’t act/feel/aspire to be like men are meant to, I’m not sure who I am”...and in exploring that they find an identity and community in identifying as a trans woman. So, it’s not really ever the woman-y stereotype they identified with so much as specifically trans women...other non-man males.

I don’t mean by that that these trans women would agree or even conceive that they do not in fact identify as women, because their desire is to align with their social group and believing trans women are women is a core value of that group, non negotiable.

But I think especially in younger trans women this is part of what’s going on, and probably something very similar going on with a lot of teenage trans men.

And what’s interesting is that this seems to fit quite well with these “other genders” that some cultures have. So rather than being proof that some males are in some innate way actually females and vice versa, these traditional other genders are a social structure to accommodate rejection of gender without requiring a person to “be” the opposite sex.

stonecat · 14/05/2021 15:27

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PermanentTemporary · 14/05/2021 15:28

I think that's really interesting @Blibbyblobby. I think we are, ironically, in transition between the world the GRA was designed for where a few people want to transition completely and in maximum secrecy, a more amorphous rejection of gender as you describe, and a libertarian porn and tech fuelled dissociation from bodies. The three don't really mix and are very generationally split.

Delphinium20 · 14/05/2021 15:32

You are making it sound as if "being a woman" is a desirable club that everyone should have a "right to get admission to", when it is not so

Yes. I agree with this statement. And that is why I often find the language of discrimination so problematic when used with transgender rights vis a vis women's spaces. I 100 percent would fight for a trans person to keep their job if they were discriminated against for being trans. This goes for housing, health care, financial loans, etc. Discrimination based on citizenship or human rights should be prosecuted. But when we look at sex categories, discrimination on a sex class should not be seen as a loss of a right because it's impossible to switch INTO a sex category (despite what some laws might suggest). Wanting "in" on the opposite sex-especially the sex that has been oppressed by your own, seems both offensive and troubling considering that women can't opt out of the issues that come with our sex class, like unwanted pregnancies and periods, 2 things no trans woman can ever experience, regardless of surgery/meds in this mythological "club of womanhood."

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