Terrified of regressive modern feminism

[TRHR]

By saying "you can't be a woman if you're born without a vagina, and if you're born with a vagina you must be a woman" you're making reproductive organs the defining and most important characteristic of being a woman. This attitude was used to oppress women for centuries. We were baby makers only, and hormonal and chromosomal differences were used to say that we were too "emotional " for public life, education and jobs. Only over the last 100 or so years have our minds and emotions been rightfully recognised as just as important as our vaginas. GC is now going back to seeing our sex organs as our most important identifier and as a feminist and a young woman this really scares me. It is playing right into the traditional patriarchy, is sexist, regressive and oppressive. The fact its being done in the name of 'feminism ' terrifies me. The recent historic implications of insisting women are defined by their bodies scares me. These views are still held by conservative (often religion based) communities and we've all seen how easy it is for these groups to gain power - feminists shouldn't be helping them justify their attitudes or behaviour.

If you've seen/read the Handmaid's Tale you'll know what attitudes I'm afraid of. GCs ironically tell TRAs they are 'handmaids' when actually it is their attitude that has historically led to the oppression that Attwood (who is trans inclusive) bases her books on.

Gender is not a set of stereotypes - it's an identity based on culture, history, society , psychology and often (but not always) sex. It's far more freeing than "vagina = woman" and takes account of each of us as individuals not just bodies, which is what feminism up until now has fought for.
As an example, many trans women don't wear "girly " clothes, they identify as "masculine/butch" lesbians. Many trans men still like wearing make up and dresses e.g. in drag.
Many people would say the world shouldn't be defined as 'male / female' at all. But it always has done, that won't be changed in our lifetime. So seen as that is our social structure, it's oppressive to police how people choose to move through life under this structure based on bodies.
Thanks for reading this far and if I get one extra person to consider the harm that GC is doing, especially to young women of child bearing age, it'll be worth the condescension and vitriol that this post will inevitably receive.

You had to watch porn? Huh?

That seems very very strange.

Were you allowed to opt out?

maybe use as food for thought, rather than instinctive scathing?

Yo, OP, you came on here specifically to scathe us, collectively, as some monolithic entity you've fabricated in your head. You presume we know little about feminism, you make all sorts of assumptions. And now you're complaining we're not responding politely to your imperious, hyperbolic opening post?

Away and patronise your granny.

@Y0YO I’m breathing a sigh of relief now.

Although having flown out to oil platforms and been met with “fuck, you’re female, wasn’t expecting that, where do I put you now?” I do feel like I have done my bit for feminism.

@LostToucan

OP if gender is not about stereotypes, then do you disagree with the Stonewall glossary?

Here's Stonewall's definition of gender: Often expressed in terms of masculinity and femininity, gender is largely culturally determined and is assumed from the sex assigned at birth.

Here's its definition of gender identity: A person’s innate sense of their own gender, whether male, female or something else (see non-binary below), which may or may not correspond to the sex assigned at birth.

If gender is "culturally determined" - that is, varies by geography and by epoch - how can it be innate? I know what was culturally determined for the female sex for those born at the same time as me: pink blankets, quiet crafting, Brownies and Guides, dolls, humanities, caring professions, nurturing, kind, caring. Wiping bottoms and soothing furrowed brows. Just innately better at a support role. And I know what was culturally determined for the male sex for those born at the same time as me: blue blankets, toy cars and dinosaurs, Scouts, STEM subjects, ambition, drive, success. Drinking pints and bonding over football. Just innately better at a dominant role.

If I say "fuck that," that makes me a feminist, not transgender. It will be a cold day in hell when I agree that what was culturally determined for me as a female infant is my destiny, much less that it is "innate" within my psyche.

And I suspect from your OP that you actually agree with me.

For anyone who is interested in Butler, btw, I found this essay was spot on.

newrepublic.com/article/150687/professor-parody

@NiceGerbil

You had to watch porn? Huh?

That seems very very strange.

Were you allowed to opt out?

I guess.. it was so long ago I can't really remember the point of it but I think it was something to do with ingrained gender stereotypes and the male gaze. I was so green and naive, was a proper eye-opener!

@NiceGerbil

I think you have to see if you can feel something right up there that feels like 'the tip of your nose' if I remember correctly from ?mizz or something.

Seems like a big ask and not at all sure how you know for a fact if you ovulate or not. I don't think there's always an egg released is there?

I mean this is quite a lot of knowledge women have to have. Sorry people with vaginas.

Some of us have very high cervices and cannot feel them (even though we also have long fingers!). The nurse always comments on it when I go for my smear or any other internal exam. I’ve never been pregnant so don’t know if that’s change anything. I’ve literally never seen or felt my cervix (other than indirectly though cramping, and it isn’t obvious that comes from the cervix) and only know I have one because I’m a woman.

[quote Y0YO]@LostToucan [/quote]
The joys of a unisex christian name.

I did get a cabin to myself though.

@BluebellTimeInKent

May I also recommend reading Virginia Woolf, Vita Sackville West, the Pankhursts, Gloria Steinam, Judith Butler (please read and understand the difference between 'performative' and 'performance '), Deborah Frances White, Lyndal Roper.

Read the Judith Butlers. Read them and understand them.

Hahahahahaha

That's the thing isn't it.

If sex is irrelevant and we must refer to body parts, how are we to know which body parts we have without making assumptions based on our sex?

It's nonsense.

Oh I do enjoy being scolded for not being woke enough.
Or a scoke if you will.
Especially the feigned surprise at women responding rather robustly to such a patronising goady post.

But the best part is finding out everyone's interesting qualifications and jobs.
Although listening to people list their double degrees does make my own sad little ba/masters education look rather lacking.
It's not that a degree makes the woman, it's just interesting to know that the very intelligent voices in here have all sorts of backgrounds, education and skills. Kind of blows the idea of a Mumsnet 'type'.

@NiceGerbil

That's the thing isn't it.

If sex is irrelevant and we must refer to body parts, how are we to know which body parts we have without making assumptions based on our sex?

It's nonsense.

Exactly.

You're easily terrified.

I have a vagina - not that this fact is the only thing that makes me a woman but since you're so focused on that aspect let's face it, a vagina is a pretty unique and important aspect of being a Woman isn't it? I will happily own being a Woman.

Men are the least of it, I'm neither male-identified or preoccupied with men so, not planning to metaphorically sail out on some crusade based on propping up patriarchy and it's enablers.

If I say "fuck that," that makes me a feminist, not transgender or, dare I add.. it does not make me a man and by declining to identify as a man because I do not conform to female stereotypes does not give anyone else the right to foist those stereotypes upon me and by implication mean that I choose my oppression as a female by failing to identify out of it..

Ah pants... I wasnt going to get drawn in.... pfft.

how are we to know which body parts we have without making assumptions based on our sex?

Vag, cervix
Vulv not dick, vulv not dick.

And ovaries
Breasts under shoulderies
And clit
Not a dick.

To the tune of head shoulders knees and toes with appropriate actions

To be fair, I've read most of OP's prescribed reading list for silly uneducated mummies, although some of it I read a few decades ago.

I don't think any of it argued for the abolition of female spaces.

To add to the varied list of MN women’s work experience I also worked investigating sites contaminated with explosives. I was lucky enough to access to some very interesting places.

you women are all much smarter than me, I don't have much book larnin.

But for the love of god OP make better use of paragraphs. The enter key is just to your right >>>>

I do hope you double space your essays

@GoingThruTheMotions

how are we to know which body parts we have without making assumptions based on our sex?

Vag, cervix
Vulv not dick, vulv not dick.

And ovaries
Breasts under shoulderies
And clit
Not a dick.

To the tune of head shoulders knees and toes with appropriate actions

Brava!

Also, if OP could investigate the convention of paragraphs, & how they might make it easier to navigate their posts, that would be great.

I give my GCSE students endless grief about this.

@BernardBlackMissesLangCleg

you women are all much smarter than me, I don't have much book larnin.

But for the love of god OP make better use of paragraphs. The enter key is just to your right >>>>

I do hope you double space your essays

X post!

@GoingThruTheMotions

how are we to know which body parts we have without making assumptions based on our sex?

Vag, cervix
Vulv not dick, vulv not dick.

And ovaries
Breasts under shoulderies
And clit
Not a dick.

To the tune of head shoulders knees and toes with appropriate actions

This could work. Though we would need to know precisely which body parts we would need to cover. I shamelessly promoted the idea of a mnemonic above, which could be taught by parents and in school. Or perhaps an acronym can be devised. The acronym could perhaps then be the useful shorthand word itself?

It's not that a degree makes the woman, it's just interesting to know that the very intelligent voices in here have all sorts of backgrounds, education and skills. Kind of blows the idea of a Mumsnet 'type'.

Absolutely. I may have three degrees (which, yes, included feminist literature), but I have learnt, and continue to learn, so much from the incredible women on here.

I needed X 4 Eresh to get through it. Two sittings!

Nevertheless, you persisted!