Reverend reported to anti-terror unit Prevent for telling pupils in a sermon they're allowed to disagree with LGBT teaching

[SuperShe]

Just read this in the daily mail, about a Reverend who was sacked and reported to Prevent (counter terrorism and radicalisation agency) for a sermon he gave to pupils: (parts extracted from article)

“You should no more be told you have to accept LGBT ideology than you should be told you must be in favour of Brexit, or must be Muslim – to both of which I’m sure most of you would quite rightly object.

So I want to say to everyone, but especially to those who have been troubled, that you are not obliged to accept someone else’s ideology. You are perfectly at liberty to hear ideas out, and then think, ‘No, not for me’.

You are entitled, if you wish, to look at some of the claims made about gender identity and think that it is incoherent to say that, for example, gender is quite independent of any biological factor, but that a person’s physiology should be changed to match his or her claimed gender; or incoherent to say that gender identity is both a matter of individual determination and social conditioning at the same time, or incoherent to make claims about being non-binary or gender-fluid by both affirming and denying the gender stereotypes which exist in wider society.

Now when ideologies compete, we should not descend into abuse, we should respect the beliefs of others, even where we disagree. Above all, we need to treat each other with respect, not personal attacks – that’s what loving your neighbour as yourself means.

By all means discuss, have a reasoned debate about beliefs, but while it’s OK to try and persuade each other, no one should be told they must accept an ideology. Love the person, even where you profoundly dislike the ideas. Don’t denigrate a person simply for having opinions and beliefs which you don’t share.”

Here’s a link to the full article. www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9557845/School-reports-chaplain-telling-pupils-theyre-allowed-disagree-LGBT-teaching.html

I wholeheartedly agreed with everything the Reverend said and I am not even a Christian. I cannot believe how he was treated when he said nothing discriminatory or illegal. Yet it’s perfectly acceptable for LGBT activists and school teachers to chant “Smash heteronormativity" in the school.

justawoman
I saw the same points you highlight in your first post.

I think what is missing in the sermon is an open acceptance that if you follow that Christian belief portrayed (and not all Christian’s agree but it is a widely held belief of many Christians), it is discriminatory against anyone who is gay.

Because while straight people can have sex but only in marriage, this option is not open to gay people in a framework where gay marriage is impossible.

It is also perfectly legal in the U.K. for gay people to marry.

Now to the tricky part and where I think the trans activists have played such a blinder in aligning so closely to LGB.....

If I accept the right of any individual to not believe in trans ideology, do I also accept their right to believe that sex outside of heterosexual marriage is wrong??

Like most of us on here, I personally am gender critical and don’t subscribe to trans ideology but I absolutely do believe in people’s right to gay marriage.

However, I accept anyone else’s right to believe whatever they want.

"and once I fought against Section 28 and fully supported LBG rights"

Presumably the conservative view (section 28) was that you can't trust (all) teachers to teach this stuff responsibly, and you need legal limits to stop them giving one-sided propaganda to kids.

And I think that's a legitimate fear.

I think this is the point - there are 2 different things - laws and practices at a societal level and individual beliefs. If you believe (which I don't) that abortion is unethical, then you have to be allowed to argue that in the public sphere, the law arises from democratic consensus but that isn't a winner takes all kind of ideological 'genocide' (hyperbole.)

We are all entitled to say we don't agree with same sex marriage, abortion, gender ideology etc, etc. Just as we are entitled to argue for the death penalty and strengthening women's sex based rights.

The problem with gender ideology is that it's completely circumvented the demoratic consensus building process which depends on reason and evidence and is trying to institute a reign of terror.

I am so fed up of us all being lumped together as LGBT. I as a lesbian have nothing in common with the T and very little to do with the G or B. We are not the same.

‘...he’s setting this up as THE Christian view and asserting that being a Christian will inevitably bring you into conflict with LGBT rights.’

Surely it is the belief of the Anglican Church and the Catholic Church, who make up the vast majority of Christians in this country?

There is a conflict between LGB rights and religion. The compromise that has been reached is civil marriages for LGB people.

@sunshineandhappy

His sermon is calm, measured and thoughtful. The schools response is frightening. I hope parents of pupils at this school are aware of the views their children are being taught to follow, without the ability to question them, and react. If my child were a pupil I would be withdrawing them from this school. Education used to be about considering all views and using evidence, facts and debate to reach a conclusion. Not being told what to think.

This. A generation being taught to blindly follow an ideology never goes well.

Great! A man of faith stands up and says we should all be allowed to question the faith and ideology of others but should still remain respectful of the person and some here want to quibble that he has fucking personal faith.

He was reported as a terrorist and you want to moan about his being a Christian, not every Christian?

Madness!

This is a real problem... the idea that this man could be described as a "terrorist". It completely devalues the seriousness of using that word.

There are echos of this across all of Woke Kingdom. Words that used to mean truly heinous things being thrown around like confetti with no serious consideration before they are invoked.

It's really quite gross and disrespectful.

This seems to be another reason not to conflate gender ideology with issues of sexual orientation.

There is a conflict between LGB rights and religion. The compromise that has been reached is civil marriages for LGB people.

The compromise is actually that religious groups who want to do gay marriages can (Quakers, the URC afaik) and those which don't want to dont have to ... and that the CofE can't, the Gordian Knot master stroke in bringing in the gay marriage legislation, as the different wings of the CofE would otherwise have been infighting till the apocalypse.

Some religious groups have done gay marriages in the past. The Quakers offered gay marriages but they weren’t legally recognised as marriages until civil gay marriage came into being.

There wasn’t a conflict between those groups and those wanting gay marriage.

The dispute was between religious groups who are opposed to gay marriage and people who advocated for it. The Quakers were already carrying out gay marriages so were not opposed to them.

People have marriage ceremonies all the time that are not legally recognised by the state and always will do. Neither the state nor the major denominations can prevent people from holding any kind of marriage ceremony with no legal status.

I agree with what ppl have said, that he has failed to note that the opinion on gay marriage is not held by all Christians or all c of e members. And the rather misleading thing he said about 'law of the land'. And that he didn't acknowledge that disagreeing with gay marriage actually does discriminate against gay ppl of you act on the belief.

But it is important that he was giving pupils permission to hold beliefs different to what they are taught at school. He was emphasising the right to hold different beliefs. It's such a core principle if we are to live happily together, and it is being lost with certain secular beliefs.

Obviously I don't know what else led tohim leaving, but on this reading I hope he wins.

This is an important point by a pp This man is being persecuted for verbalising what is the classic position on tolerance and freedom of thought.

I agree that I read the bit about gay marriage and sex before marriage with a slight cringe, but it is a view held by some for religious purposes and it should be allowed to be said.

The measure and call for tolerance of all views was loud and clear, though. In contrast with the description of the training received by staff (rainbow badges for right-thinking, anyone? Chanting?), it was far more open and accepting of different views.

It certainly wasn't extremist.

I was thinking back to my last school's no-platform policy which was referred to in a complaint by a vegan parent when the milk marketing board came to do a talk. I just read the wording again - and the part that jumps out is where it says something on the line of: 'no speaker should be permitted to promote one particular political ideology'. I think the LGBTQ+ programme at this school would fall foul of that. The balance of views was being upheld by just this one man - however you may disagree with some of what he expressed.

What do we want schools to be like? Do we want to engage in critical thinking and plurality of thought? I know I want that for my children.
It is just plain dangerous to have 'right-think' on a subject that is controversial and where there are legitimate alternative views.

I hope this man is vindicated and hasn't suffered too much emotionally about this horrible situation. Imagine being reported to Prevent?!

‘I agree with what ppl have said, that he has failed to note that the opinion on gay marriage is not held by all Christians or all c of e members.’

It isn’t a democracy though; it is a denomination and an established church. He isn’t there to represent all Christians or make up church teaching based on what members of the congregation believe.

The CofE explicitly states that its members hold a range of views on the issue of sexuality and marriage, and that its clergy are allowed to argue for any position within that spectrum.

I had the same thought Justawoman. That bit of his sermon about gay marriage law really set my teeth on edge and doesn’t reflect the reality in the CofE where views at all levels are very diverse. Lots of vicars tweet on LGBT issues for example. But I did like what he said about respecting the person even when you disagree with the views, and that people have more in common than divides them. I can imagine boarding schools are pressure cooker environments but reporting him to Prevent is cloud cuckoo land stuff and sounds like harassment. The whole story is just weird and puts the school in a bad light. Can any teachers here tell us if they have ever had to go to another training session where they have to learn chants? That doesn’t sound like encouraging empathy and engaging problem-solving processes, more like drilling a squadron.

‘The CofE explicitly states that its members hold a range of views on the issue of sexuality and marriage, and that its clergy are allowed to argue for any position within that spectrum.’

Well exactly. So why would he start trying to represent the views of every Christian everywhere rather than the view of Christian tradition he believes in as a priest?

It is ironic that he mentions No Outsiders as that was also developed as a Prevent strategy!

I feel for Reverend Randal. These intimidating guerrilla tactics are appalling.

I wonder whether parents who pay hefty fees for their children to attend (and board!) at this school are aware of what's going on?

The Secular Society is campaigning to get religion out of schools (a view I sympathized with) but now the spreading of fundamentalist dogma is coming from LBGT activists who have free rein and are given the same status as holy men and prophets

^This. A zillion times

Either you allow everyone to come and express their views and foster tolerance, or you keep all ideologies out, remain truly secular and stick to maths, geography, etc. It's madness

We truly live under humane fascism.

And I only say humane because getting fired is not quite the same as being killed, tortured, or sent to a labor camp. But otherwise, it is quite clear that dissenting opinions are not tolerated.

Nothing wrong with that sermon in my opinion - it’s refreshing actually. God knows children need some balancing viewpoints.
Just another example of freedom of speech being too much for lefty people to bear these days.

@LibertyMole

‘The CofE explicitly states that its members hold a range of views on the issue of sexuality and marriage, and that its clergy are allowed to argue for any position within that spectrum.’

Well exactly. So why would he start trying to represent the views of every Christian everywhere rather than the view of Christian tradition he believes in as a priest?

It is ironic that he mentions No Outsiders as that was also developed as a Prevent strategy!

He is not trying to represent the views of everyone who claims they are Christian. He believes that gay marriage is not compatable with Christianity. Therefore to him this is the Christian view. There will be other things others who claim to be Christian will also believe that he also wouldn't teach because he would believe them contrary to Christianity. He wouldn't say 'some Christians believe in polygamy' (Mormons) because he would consider this contrary to Christianity.

He's clearly a bigot: he said "remember that religious belief is just as protected in law as sexual orientation", having pointed out earlier that "some ... will happily lie about gender identity being a legally protected characteristic (which it isn’t)" (the process of transitioning from one gender to another is what is protected in law).

Or maybe it's just that he unforgiveably knows what the law actually says, which is not actually bigoted of him at all.

Dr Ellie Barnes
-the only advice I give is don't send a letter home or have a parents evening-

streamja.com/akjV9

from article in OP
"Dr Randall’s sermon, delivered in the school chapel on June 21, 2019, was prompted, he says, by concerns from pupils about an organisation called Educate & Celebrate, run by Dr Elly Barnes, which was invited to ‘embed gender, gender identity and sexual orientation into the fabric’ of the school. "