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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Julia Long article - A Meaningful Transition

70 replies

Clarice99 · 08/05/2021 14:02

Apologies if this has already been linked, but I received it today and share the confusion raised in the article.

If you can’t change your sex, why are the terms ‘transsexual’ and ‘transwoman’ lent credence among British gender critical feminists?

uncommongroundmedia.com/a-meaningful-transition-julia-long/

I'm fairly new to this section of MN and I have so much to learn. I have very black and white thinking due to autism, and I simply cannot buy into 'made up' gender in place of sex.

If I've incorrectly posted a link and need to copy the entire article instead, please post to let me know.

OP posts:
Sunkisses · 10/05/2021 13:54

@EmpressWitchDoesntBurn

Julia Long’s going to be on the Standing for Women YouTube channel tonight at 9.
Oh brilliant. Two fantastic women. I love their bravery and don't give a crap attitude. Thoroughly liberated.
TheFleegleHasLanded · 10/05/2021 21:09

Does anyone have a direct link for the Posie/Julia livestream? I can't find it Sad

TheFleegleHasLanded · 10/05/2021 21:10

Found it!

WarriorN · 11/05/2021 07:37

It's very good. Excellent made about the trans academics who are developing courses. (11 mins in)

Aldi compost sounds awesome, good tip Julia.

SisterWendyBuckett · 11/05/2021 08:18

Thank you all for the insights, commentary and links - clarity, truth and shared sisterhood.

Thanks OP Thanks it's threads like this that keep me going.

UtopiaPlanitia · 11/05/2021 17:39

[quote TheFleegleHasLanded]Found it!

[/quote] Thanks for the link Fleegle, I’m enjoying watching it.

Update to previous post: I received a refund for Stock’s book and donated the money to Standing For Women. I don’t want to cancel Stock in any way, I find some of her work and public speaking interesting and useful, and I’m glad she contributes to public debates but I’ve read the TransWidow threads here (and visited Tinsel’s website) and had my eyes opened, so I don’t feel inclined to buy Stock’s book when she has written something so dismissive that serves to undermine women who have suffered and want to speak about it (and serves to denigrate feminists who want to speak in support of these women by naming the issues accurately).

Pota2 · 11/05/2021 18:55

Rather than returning the book, maybe there is someone else you know who’d benefit from reading it. Or stick it one of those book exchanges.

MonkeyNotOrgangrinder · 11/05/2021 22:24

Mine was an electronic copy, I chose to get a refund, and I'm glad I made that decision. Don't want KS cancelled, do want to be able to draw my own boundaries. I was grateful for the reminder from TinselAngel about the Julia Long essay.
Imo it's really important not to dilute the message in the service of "being kind"
And Stephanie Hayton's tormented face in the documentary is burned into my mind.

SisterWendyBuckett · 12/05/2021 09:26

I don’t feel inclined to buy Stock’s book when she has written something so dismissive that serves to undermine women who have suffered and want to speak about it (and serves to denigrate feminists who want to speak in support of these women by naming the issues accurately).

I have no problem with different opinions and want to work with all women on this.

However, telling the truth and using the correct words are essential otherwise we end up colluding. I know this to my own cost.

The stark choice for me, which has cost me dearly, was either agree to untruths and manipulation of reality which lead to harm - or lose my mind.

Pota2 · 12/05/2021 09:44

To be fair, we are entitled to disagree with other feminists. All Stock has done is say that she disagrees with Julia’s arguments. That’s what people do in books. She hasn’t been personal or libelled Julia. I don’t think that one short passage should cause people to return the book. I agree with Julia that it is logistically impossible to draw a distinction between ‘good trans’ and ‘bad trans’ with regard to the extent of a transition. At the same time, I disagree with her that AGP is the only or main reason men transition. That’s way too simplistic. I also disagree with her that there can only be malevolent reasons for transition, as she suggested on PP’s channel. I also disagree with her that there should be no recognition of trans people on the basis that ‘there is no such thing as trans’. I think it’s okay for me to disagree in this way and I’m puzzled at how incensed people are about a very small part of this book.

mollythemeerkat · 12/05/2021 09:59

Ive sat on the fence and ordered the book from the library. Ive liked Stock`s contributions in the past but reading this thread will make me read her book a bit more critically. I agree with @Pota2 that there will inevitably be times when prominent feminists disagree and I understand that many people will have strong views about the passages in question.

SisterWendyBuckett · 12/05/2021 10:06

I found Julia Long's thoughts very interesting on K-J's channel.

There are countless reasons why people chose to transition - and it's as complex as each individual.

However, my own experience is that you can drive yourself up the wall trying to understand. It's impossible without bending truth and reality. I think that's why the 'be kind' approach and Stonewall's acceptance without exception is so appealing - it's top level thinking and possibly the only way to make sense of this ideology. If we suspend our critical thinking we can accept. However, that means boundaries are encroached, rights come into conflict and we risk abandoning safeguarding.

I've 'educated' myself to the point where this has dominated my thinking for a long time. I've done that to try to understand. And yet everything comes back to one thing only. Objective reality versus feelings.

Maybe Julia has had enough of her energy being sucked out by this and that's why she calls out the behaviours that underpin everything.

soberodent · 12/05/2021 14:02

This reply has been deleted

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malloo · 12/05/2021 14:32

I know this is missing the point but do people really return books they don't like? Or don't agree with? I've never heard of that. Is that not a bit like buying an outfit, wearing it once then taking it back and saying you don't like it? Cheeky! I would have thought if you don't like a book you've read you just pass to charity shop. Anyway, isn't it good to read things you don't agree with from time to time?

I haven't read the book yet though. I caught a bit of the PP/ Julia Long interview the other night and while I agreed with some of it, I'm not on board with the argument that all transwomen are AGP or have malicious intentions. Maybe I'm naive :)

somethinginoffensive · 12/05/2021 14:36

I know this is missing the point but do people really return books they don't like? Or don't agree with?

That seems like "cancel culture" to me. I don't pay for books because I agree with everything the author says, I pay if I want to read it.

WarriorN · 12/05/2021 18:09

I'd be tempted to scribble notes in the margins and donate to charity.

Pota2 · 12/05/2021 18:54

@somethinginoffensive

I know this is missing the point but do people really return books they don't like? Or don't agree with?

That seems like "cancel culture" to me. I don't pay for books because I agree with everything the author says, I pay if I want to read it.

Agree. It is cancel culture and seems unnecessarily harsh.
UtopiaPlanitia · 12/05/2021 22:29

@somethinginoffensive

I know this is missing the point but do people really return books they don't like? Or don't agree with?

That seems like "cancel culture" to me. I don't pay for books because I agree with everything the author says, I pay if I want to read it.

I pre-ordered it months ago when I knew nothing about the content. I’ve since read reviews of the content and decided it wasn’t for me, so I returned it for refund. I believe I’m allowed to change my mind about things I buy; I mean, buying a book isn’t entering into a binding contract to read the thing, is it? 🤔🤷‍♀️😵‍💫
Stopthisnow · 13/05/2021 07:12

I disagree with her that AGP is the only or main reason men transition. That’s way too simplistic.

“Ray Blanchard: I introduced the word and the concept of autogynephilia—the tendency of certain males to become sexually aroused by the thought or image of themselves as females—in 1989 as an extension of the concept of transvestic fetishism. The DSM diagnosis, Transvestic Fetishism, was defined in psychiatry at that time as sexual urges and fantasies involving cross-dressing in heterosexual males.”

“When I looked at the relative numbers of autogynephilic and androphilic gender-dysphoric males back in 1987, the autogynephilic cases were already a majority, approaching 60 percent. The proportion had reached 75 percent by 2010, and it might be even higher now.”

quillette.com/2019/11/06/what-is-autogynephilia-an-interview-with-dr-ray-blanchard/

Stopthisnow · 13/05/2021 08:14

“I'm not on board with the argument that all transwomen are AGP or have malicious intentions.”

No one has said they all have AGP, that’s the problem, we are well aware that some are gay. Neither did feminists say all individual AGPs are out to attack women. By saying these things in the book Stock is either deliberately misrepresenting the arguments that radical feminists have been making, or she hasn’t read Sheila Jeffreys’ book and has not listened to the arguments at all.

What feminists are actually saying is fetishising women like AGPs do, because it is sexually exciting to them, is itself misogynistic. It is nothing to do with thinking they all may actually attack us (though some have). Neither do we want to participate in a male’s sexual fetish by validating them as any kind of woman, e.g. by referring to them as any kind of woman etc.

Stock’s counter argument is males are just as much victims of a culture that objectifies women as women are, no acknowledgement by Stock that males created and benefit from a culture that objectifies women though I see. Instead because many women eroticise their own oppression, women shouldn’t criticise males who fetishise women, as that would be mean. Instead of “kink shaming” them we should ‘destigmatise’ AGP apparently, as three male psychologists (one who is a self confessed AGP) think that is beneficial for those males. What is beneficial for females clearly doesn’t enter into it.

I wonder if white people in the US started pretending to be black, putting on blackface, and acting out slavery scenes, because they found black people’s oppression sexually arousing, would Stock also think those white people should be seen as victims of a racist culture as much as black people? Or would she think it reasonable if black people felt disgusted, revolted and extremely offended by it and condemned it? If she thinks it’s ok to condemn fetishisation when it relates to race but not when it relates to the female sex I wonder why that may be?

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