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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Ann Sinnott of Authentic Equity Alliance vs EHRC Judicial Review of incorrect Equality Act guidance

826 replies

R0wantrees · 06/05/2021 09:45

The presiding judge decided that this should go straight to a 1-day oral Permissions Hearing.

This hearing will decide whether or not AEA can proceed to Judicial Review of EHRC and will also rule on request for a costs cap (to protect AEA) should the case go forward.

AEA about the case,
"Official sources provide unlawful guidance on the 2010 Equality Act!
Yes, you read that right! It's shocking, isn't it?

For nearly 10 years, unlawful guidance on the 2010 Equality Act (EA2010) has been displayed on the website of the Equality and Human Rights Commission (EHRC) and on the Government Equalities Office (GEO) website for 5 years.

Over these ten years, the guidance has been widely accessed and further disseminated by countless organisations of all types. As a result, the unlawful guidance is reflected in the equality policies of organisations and institutions throughout the UK.

EHRC and GEO guidance is in breach of EA2010, Schedule 3, Sections 26, 27 and 28

This is a legal case to ensure that EA2010 guidance accurately reflects the Act.

The Complainant is Authentic Equity Alliance (AEA), a Community Interest Company established to promote and further the interests of women and girls."
Website: aealliance.co.uk/

Ann Sinnott (founder/director) twitter.com/AnnMSinnott

Twitter live tweeting of case via #AEAvEHRC and #IStandWithAnnSinnott

OP posts:
Thread gallery
6
littlbrowndog · 06/05/2021 20:57

Keep going. Keep going

Imagine in the 60s women couldn’t get birth control without their husband’s permission.

We keep going

We are strong. We grow babies. We give birth.

We are strong

We won’t bow down 💪💪💪💪💪

NiceGerbil · 06/05/2021 20:59

The it'll not get abused thing baffles me.

When I was growing up there were loads of mainstream popular films and progs that made s joke of men and boys going to extreme lengths to spy on women/ girls undressing or naked.

Porkies had this I seem to remember and I'm sure Monty python Benny hill and stuff pretended it as funny when men/ boys would spy on girls/women or catch them unawares without their clothes on.

If it was a mainstream comedy thing that obviously this happens/ males would like it to happen and it's funny... Just s free decades ago. Then how is it suddenly definitely a fact that men won't do this?

And even in the face of the spycam issues in South Korea being so widespread that all phone cameras there have to make a click sound when a pic is taken, the report that said the majority of sex offences at sports centres in UK are in mixed sex changing villages, the recent need to bring in an upskirting law (should never have been a loophole for that) etc etc etc

And the assaults that have been carried out by self id trans women in prisons and registered elsewhere.

It's men isn't it they just aren't interested and don't care.

I probably need to NAMALT there but I'm so tried of having to add that.

thepuredrop · 06/05/2021 21:01

I'm not saying any of that. I am saying some service providers can elect to be mixed sex and others can elect to be single sex.

I understand my summary is not your position, but I think it is how the judgment will be applied in practice.

So we insist that women-only SPs operate as single-sex and exclude TW. At the same time, Stonewall will insist that sometimes TW can be included, per judgment. SP will then assess the circumstances that it will sometimes include TW in a single-sex women’s service. For prisons, hospital wards, etc. I still don’t see how this is helpful.

But I’m now wondering if you view it as a long game. Take back rights bit-by-bit, so, capitalise and then push on? (A bit like Stonewall have been doing!)

littlbrowndog · 06/05/2021 21:02

But gerbil

Men never realise that. The judge is a man. I think

Not a clue about what happens in women’s and girls lives.

About what can happen to us

RichardGadsden · 06/05/2021 21:03

I think one of the confusions here is that people think that these exemptions in the Equality Act are for service users (ie people).

They aren't. They're for service providers (ie businesses or local councils or the NHS or whatever).

If a service provider decides to make all provision unisex, then the only thing you have the right to do under the Equality Act is not go there.

You might have rights under another Act, of course - for instance the NHS Acts entitle you to single-sex wards under some circumstances. But you can't complain under the Equality Act that someone is not discriminating.

There are no circumstances where the Equality Act requires anyone to make a single-sex or sex-segregated provision. They are allowed to under a list of exemptions (11 of them), but there is no requirement on them to do so and they can choose not to. Yes, that means that your local council could declare that the changing rooms in the gym or the swimming baths are all unisex!

There might be an argument that a public-sector organisation could be obliged under the public sector equality duty to segregate provision in some circumstances - but that could only apply to a public-sector organisation (so a private gym operating unisex changing rooms would be completely within its rights to do so).

On top of the single-sex and sex-segregation exemptions, there's an exemption to the general rule that you can't discriminate on the basis of gender reassignment. That can be used by, for example, rape crisis centres. They are, again, not obliged to used it, but they can if they want to. Once again, the service users, (ie the general public), have no right to services that discriminate; the service provider can if they want to, but can choose not to if they don't want to.

What this case is all about is, when an organisation is using a single-sex or sex-segregated exemption and is not using the gender reassignment exemption, what happens to transsexual people who don't have a GRC?

Transsexual people who do have a GRC are of the acquired gender, ie are (legally) of the sex they say they are, so a sex-discrimination exemption can't exclude them. So, given that you have to let a transsexual woman in with a GRC, and that you aren't allowed to ask whether they have a GRC or not, and that there's no way to tell a transsexual woman with a GRC from a transsexual woman without a GRC other than by the GRC, is it gender reassignment discrimination to exclude a transsexual woman without a GRC from a women-only space when you are not using the gender reassignment exemption? And the answer was "yes".

The gender reassignment exemption is unaffected (that lets you keep out transsexual people with a GRC, so you can definitely also keep out transsexual people without one). So spaces only for non-transsexual women are completely legal - but only if you can justify the narrower gender reassignment exemption and not the broader sex exemption.

But note that this doesn't give the right to discriminate to women. It gives the right to service providers. No-one has the right to a single-sex space. No-one ever did under the Equality Act. That's not how that law works. People providing spaces are allowed to provide single-sex ones under some circumstances, but are not obliged to do so; they can elect to provide fully unisex spaces if they prefer (again, they might be required under other laws, this is just the EA).

If you want to have the right as an individual to a single-sex space, then the Equality Act is the wrong law to look at. I think you'd need legislation to create that right so you can sue a service provider for not segregating. At the moment, you can only sue them for segregating.

Eyewhisker · 06/05/2021 21:03

Yes, we need to keep going. There was a really interesting talk by Stephen Whittle at the LSE on how they got trans rights changed in law. It was through a lot of private lobbying, getting articles in the press and lots of court cases, many of which they lost but they won some key ones.

I also think the judge was right about focusing on specific instances. It’s a lot easier to rule in favour of Keira Bell or a woman raped by a convicted TW sex offender who the ‘be kind’ brigade put in a women’s prison. These concrete cases make the conflict clear.

I wonder if there can be publicity around the massive increase in ‘female’ sex offenders.

NiceGerbil · 06/05/2021 21:10

Thing is with contraception there was a clear benefit for men in women and girls being able to get it easily.

With keeping single sex provision there is no clear benefit for men and boys.

If they think of their partners daughters etc I suspect it will be similar to how the risk of being victim of a sex offender is currently viewed by society. Well if you don't do this and don't do that then it won't happen. Restrict freedom.

We've already seen if you don't want to be locked in with a self id rapist then don't commit a crime. And men seem to see that 'fact' that anyone in prison with men will probably be sexually violated. And rather than having charities etc or lobbying to reduce the violence in prisons, they make a joke of it. God knows why.

So it will go.

Clothes shopping- easy to do online or try on at home. Nothing lost. You don't need to use the changing rooms.
Sports centres. Be on the alert. Scan for hidden cameras. Take care to change without showing anything. Choose a cubicle at the end so only one side is a risk. Go on pairs and take it in turns to change while the other looks out for cameras.
Sports. Some sports are more suited to female people. Rugby is too dangerous anyway. Football concussion risk shouldn't be doing it anyway. Weight lifting and other strength sports I mean pretty niche why would a female person want to get involved. Gymnastics and synchronised swimming are much better. You won't get hurt.
Etc etc etc

Swimminglanes · 06/05/2021 21:18

Yes, we have a long undoing.

More and more young males who are autistic or who have porn influenced gender problems are buying hormones and claiming a female identity which is generating a situation where female facilities are presented to them as open house.

They are not. As this judge just said.

Take Bannatyne's sports and leisure facilities as an example. The owner has said he will invoke the exemption. They are entitled to do this.

All gym/leisure/hotel providers are entitled do this. They can follow his lead.

Paying Stonewall to tell you women have to be subjugated to men is a dick move. Especially when you are all about decolonising your business.

LazyHorizon · 06/05/2021 21:21

Just catching up with this. Not sure whether to laugh (in disbelief) or cry.

Can someone inform the judiciary that most TW do not have surgery to make them “indistinguishable” from natal women. Plus chromosomes, skeletal mass, lung capacity, muscle mass etc are also a thing.

Blows my mind how it’s taken for granted that TW can’t be expected to share single sex space with men, because male-born people commit almost all the violent crime and might be a risk to the TW. But when it comes to women’s single sex spaces, they should budge up and stop being bigots because male-born people would never take advantage of it. I mean.. are you fucking kidding me.

thinkingaboutLangCleg · 06/05/2021 21:21

Shall I see you all in the ladies loo? The one I've been using for years and years without anyone even noticing?

Unless you’re telepathic, Shizuku, you have no idea who noticed and who didn’t. We stay silent out of embarrassment or a misplaced kindness. I think that tolerance is starting to wear thin.

AdHominemNonSequitur · 06/05/2021 21:23

Well there it is. No such thing as single sex anymore, I've never really minded mixed sex facilities personally and trans women have been using the ladies for years, but I'll be fucked if I'm being grouped into single gender facilities. I am never tolerating a queue for the ladies ever again. Fuck men's privacy and dignity. I'm going to get myself a s/he pee and cause some discomfort.

Swimminglanes · 06/05/2021 21:24

No-one has the right to a single-sex space. No-one ever did under the Equality Act. That's not how that law works. People providing spaces are allowed to provide single-sex ones under some circumstances, but are not obliged to do so; they can elect to provide fully unisex spaces if they prefer (again, they might be required under other laws, this is just the EA).

Exactly, however we have had a few years of being told that it is never legal to exclude any male that wants to claim transsexual as a PC.

And public sector bodies making funding dependent on inclusion of any male that wants access to female only services a condition.

None of this is true or necessary.

LostToucan · 06/05/2021 21:27

I remember the male outrage at my graduation ball in the 1980s when the women got pissed off with the queues for the ladies and used the gents instead.

If only I’d known then what I know now.

Manderleyagain · 06/05/2021 21:30

Richardgadsden I also think what was clarified today was that the judge agreed with ehrc that service providers should start from the position that they will admit a trans person to single sex service of their acquired sex, and if they decide to exclude them it will just be to exclude that individual, not a blanket rule. The presumption will be to include. AEA were trying to argue to always exclude by saying that the decision has already been made to eg exclude males. But the judge said Parliament meant for trans ppl to have a different status to others of their birth sex, via the pc of gender reassignment.

thepuredrop · 06/05/2021 21:30

Yes, we have a long undoing.

We have to lobby, then, and persuade SPs why they should invoke both sex and GR-based exceptions, and articulate the narrow basis (as a pp mentioned) as to why this is justifiable.
Also lobby Parliament for legislation wrt public service provision, NHS, prisons, etc.

Leafstamp · 06/05/2021 21:31

@AdHominemNonSequitur

Well there it is. No such thing as single sex anymore, I've never really minded mixed sex facilities personally and trans women have been using the ladies for years, but I'll be fucked if I'm being grouped into single gender facilities. I am never tolerating a queue for the ladies ever again. Fuck men's privacy and dignity. I'm going to get myself a s/he pee and cause some discomfort.
You’ll enjoy this that I linked to earlier:

www.independent.co.uk/life-style/topless-woman-male-only-swimming-pool-protest-gender-recognition-act-amy-desir-dulwich-south-london-a8261801.html

Grin
Swimminglanes · 06/05/2021 21:31

The last few years have destroyed tolerance. The younger generation of males wanting hormones immediately and publicly sharing how much they hate and want to abuse women has made it absolutely clear that this free for all is outwith the purpose of the exceptions in the Equality Act.

The older generation cheering this on have proved the need for controls to be used.

thepuredrop · 06/05/2021 21:47

First on my mind is how to lobby the NHS and Prison service to invoke the GR exception of the EA2010.

StillFemale · 06/05/2021 21:47

@thinkingaboutLangCleg

Shall I see you all in the ladies loo? The one I've been using for years and years without anyone even noticing?

Unless you’re telepathic, Shizuku, you have no idea who noticed and who didn’t. We stay silent out of embarrassment or a misplaced kindness. I think that tolerance is starting to wear thin.

We stay silent out of fear too, fear of the risk of aggression from a male who already felt entitled to violate our boundaries
OldCrone · 06/05/2021 21:47

On top of the single-sex and sex-segregation exemptions, there's an exemption to the general rule that you can't discriminate on the basis of gender reassignment. That can be used by, for example, rape crisis centres.

This is the one that businesses and other organisations which have been Stonewalled have insisted doesn't exist.

I don't think anyone has been arguing that anyone has to invoke single sex exemptions or gender reassignment exemptions, just that they are legally allowed to do so. You seem to be agreeing that this interpretation of the law is correct, but I'm unsure from the tweets whether this judge also confirmed this or not.

What do we do now to make sure that service providers also understand this? They have been saying that they have to allow access to males who self-identify as women, when in fact they don't, because they have been advised by Stonewall which has misinterpreted the law. The existence of the single sex and gender reassignment exemptions and how they interact was what I thought this case was seeking to clarify.

Swimminglanes · 06/05/2021 21:49

@Manderleyagain

Richardgadsden I also think what was clarified today was that the judge agreed with ehrc that service providers should start from the position that they will admit a trans person to single sex service of their acquired sex, and if they decide to exclude them it will just be to exclude that individual, not a blanket rule. The presumption will be to include. AEA were trying to argue to always exclude by saying that the decision has already been made to eg exclude males. But the judge said Parliament meant for trans ppl to have a different status to others of their birth sex, via the pc of gender reassignment.
I don't think that is true. Case by case is not person by person.

I know this always get undermined in twatter arguments but it is the service providers right to use the exception.

So many lies. If the Equality Act dint ever want sex segregation it would have said so. It said the exact opposite.

Colonialism hasn't gone away. Moving in on someone's else's space and then saying get me out if you can is supposed to be bad form now.

Why are men still doing it?

Unsure33 · 06/05/2021 21:52

I don’t agree that this is just because the judge is a man . There are some very good female judges who may have interpreted the law in the same way because perhaps it is ambiguous , badly written and perhaps not clear at all .
These cases have all shown that change is needed to stop misinterpretation.

Also I don’t agree that all men are the same , personally I think there are lot of men ( as well women) who don’t realise about these cases or implications . If they did know they would be concerned for their wives and daughters and would also fund appeals or get involved in campaigning.

ChristinaXYZ · 06/05/2021 21:54

Someone quoted this on a discussion on Ovarit which is a more positive take on today. I would be interested to hear what the legally minded among you think.

Quoting (with permission) Jackie Hollyoake:

Mr Justice Henshaw refused an application for Judicial Review because, as far as he was concerned, it was unnecessary.

The existing law [that is the interaction of the GRA 2004 and the EA 2010] provides for single sex spaces and that transpeople, regardless of the protective characteristic of 'gender reassignment' or of the possession of a 'GRC', have "no automatic entitlement of access [to single sex spaces or services reserved to the female sex] on the basis of 'acquired gender' ".

AEA won its case on those terms and needs no longer to expend any funds on any further legal action. [Although, AEA may choose to pursue to ensure clarification, for which I will support.]

This Judge has stated that the 'bar' for a proportionate means to achieve a legitimate aim, in this circumstance, is the privacy of the female sex and the provision of decency for the female sex.

So, any male or transperson who violates the privacy boundary of any member of the female sex in any circumstance is declared by existing law to be indecent.

The use of the word 'decency' is no accident given the sexual offence of 'indecent exposure'.

Effectively, this Judge seems to be saying that, given the terms of the GRA 2004 and the Equality Act 2010, males of any description [with or without a GRC], should stay out of women's spaces and services or risk criminal proceedings for indecency at the very least.

EHRC needs to make it plain, to service providers and to service users, that the statement from the Judge explains in law that there is no "automatic entitlement" to the access of any female service / spaces bestowed by the GR protected characteristic or via a GRC; and that such a violation of access amounts to an invasion of privacy of and behaviour that is indecent toward the sex class that is female.

ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 06/05/2021 21:56

As far as I can tell the main issue is that the EA2010 allows for single sex services eg a women's refuge is not discriminating against men (or non GRC transwomen). The GRA in addition states that eg transwomen can be legitimately excluded from single sex female spaces - there are exceptions where transpeople are not treated as their acquired gender.

The issue is that the EHRC along with Stonewall et al has been telling everybody that any male with the PC of gender reassignment is allowed in female spaces such as changing rooms.

Service providers believe these are legitimate sources of advice, they can't waste money on lawyers or court cases so they follow this advice believing that single sex female spaces are not allowed to exclude transwomen. And of course if they do try and apply the single sex exceptions they are dogpiled by TRAs until they do.

There is a lot of unpicking to do, and in time it will be done.

Swimminglanes · 06/05/2021 21:59

Completely agree with that post @ChristinaXYZ

I have also taken advice from my equality solicitors and QC about enforced harassment at work if expected to share female facilities with men crossdressing.