"I thought it was just a part of life." VAWG survey report published today

[334bu]

mobile.twitter.com/DrJessTaylor/status/1388042155319517185

Shocking results. Surpring? Unfortunately not!

@334bu I agree that people would try to dismiss the findings regardless of how it was carried out, but the point is that as it stands there is no way to robustly defend the criticisms relating to the self-selecting sample; if the methods were more robust then the authors would be in a strong position to argue against the criticisms.

To get an unbiased sample, you wouldn't need to include minors, just a representative sample of adult women. Unfortunately, conducting a study like that would likely be expensive and time-consuming. But it would be perfectly possible to do with sufficient funding (although unlikely to actually happen, admittedly).

To get an unbiased sample, you wouldn't need to include minors, just a representative sample of adult women. Unfortunately, conducting a study like that would likely be expensive and time-consuming. But it would be perfectly possible to do with sufficient funding (although unlikely to actually happen, admittedly).

Unlikely yes, especially if it risks getting answers they'd rather not know about.

@ItsAllGoingToBeFine, yes I saw that too. But the report includes statements like

Our findings in this report suggest that current statistics of the prevalence of violence against women have been underestimated for decades, and instead, it is likely that every woman and girl will be subjected to violence, abuse, rape or harassment.

It appears from this sample that violence and abuse against women and girls is a universal experience, with only 0.3% of the sample reporting that they had never been subjected to any violence, harassment, abuse or harm.

So they are clearly making generalisations.

I should emphasise that I think this work is really valuable and has some very important findings - but it just can't say anything reliable about the prevalence of VAWG in the general population. The really interesting findings, to my mind, are about the hugely diverse characteristics of the women reporting violence, and the persistence of these experiences.

I filled this in (it was open to all women, not just those who'd experienced abuse). I was also concerned about self-selecting participants, and one reason I filled it in was because I have experienced very little male violence and wanted to see that data included. But very little is not none, and I found myself replying in the affirmative to several questions. I think that was part of the point of the survey design - to highlight incidents that are too often normalised.

I think the authors have a good handle on the limits of their methodoligy and have explicitly said they are not generalising this study's findings to the overall population. But I know the media are notoriously awful at reporting stats (and science in general) well. Maybe More or Less will cover it.

www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=900994340744254&set=p.900994340744254&type=3

19 transwomen took part in this survey.

I don't want it being discredited, incidentally. I think Jessica does incredible work, she's so passionate and it's good to see someone with her background delve into these kinds of issues. She has so much to offer society, clearly, and I look forward to seeing what she achieves over the whole course of her working life. But I also don't think anything or anyone should be above criticism and this survey should be subjected to analysis. That's healthy and necessary.

@BrittaFilter

I think the survey shows clearly that lots of awful behaviour is normalised. However (sorry) I also have issues with the methodology on this one, both in the self selecting respondent group, and in some of the activities classed as sexual violence. I don't think its helpful to consider catcalling, or unwanted nudes, for example, as violence. There's very real, very harmful violence against women and girls, and catcalling is part of the culture which allows it, to be sure, but not comparable in itself to then be grouped up as '99.57% of women experience violence including rape'.

I'm a victim and I did the survey but I think the reporting of it is definitely not helpful and think that it's true what you said about including things like catcalling as violence. It has helped make leaving domestic abuse relationships with serious abuse or violence a lot harder. I think it's made it easier for housing departments to get rid of you when you ask for help. They don't take the words domestic abuse or domestic violence seriously enough. I know they don't actually want to help but it's making their job easier. I know catcalling and stuff like that isn't ok but it's not the same as being beaten or raped. It's in the news about the cladding leaseholders who have been told they have to pay to remove it and the reporters are shocked and outraged that they were told to just call Samaritans or GP instead of actually given the practical help they need. It's the same thing with trying to leave domestic violence. When there's no help and nowhere safe to go, you get told to just call Samaritans or GP like you're mental for needing practical help. I think this survey will make it easier for people to dismiss victims who are in serious danger or who need support to recover. I know catcalling isn't ok but you don't be at risk of being killed from it.

For me, the results are unsurprising and I would be surprised if it was not indicative of VAWAG in the general population. I've grown up with a relatively privileged background and I've been pretty sheltered from some of the stuff other women have had to put up with.... But still I have been cat called, groped etc - I've even had a sandwich thrown at me from a moving car whilst walking on the pavement. I can't say that I have been particularly upset by any of this (although the sandwich incident was a bit odd), as I've always taken it as 'it's just part of life'. But it shouldn't be.

Facebook live video discussion of this on Jessica Taylor's Facebook at the moment. She's taking questions.

www.facebook.com/jessicaforenpsych/videos/1390778357945063

@Thelnebriati

Every time I've been catcalled I've been left wondering if he will escalate or not.

Absolutely. Sending nudes/catcalling/walking too close...aren't they all the "thin" end of the spectrum called harassment/misogyny?

We've all had experiences when we've been scared that a man's behaviour is going to escalate; this is the constant fear.

[quote howmanynames]Facebook live video discussion of this on Jessica Taylor's Facebook at the moment. She's taking questions.

www.facebook.com/jessicaforenpsych/videos/1390778357945063[/quote]
Thanks for that. It was interesting to see her replies to questions on the methodology. I am still concerned about the wording of the initial tweet sharing the survey as that is the means by which many will have seen it.

She made an interesting point though that in most headline making statistics people don't care about the methodology (which is not a positive IMO).

She also compared people questioning the methodology to people not believing what women say about VAWG which I thought was a bit off.

What does that mean? Is it a bum grope in a pub, or is it holding someone down and assaulting them. Both are bad, but there's a clear separation between the two and how you'd tackle them.
I don't think that's relevant really. The responses show a large proportion of women will experience serious and less serious assaults. The society that accepts a "bum grope" enables more serious offences.
Personally I wish we would crack down on "bum gropes". But we can't even manage to prosecute rapists effectively

She also compared people questioning the methodology to people not believing what women say about VAWG which I thought was a bit off.
I totally agree with her. That's what it comes across as - "this can't possibly be true, it must be bad science". We have had comments to that effect on this thread.

@allQuentinBunbury I don't think anybody has said that it can't be true, or that it is 'bad science'. I wouldn't be at all surprised if findings from a random sample showed very high levels of VAGW as well, but what I am concerned about is they they are opening themselves up to criticism that could undermine the whole study if they make interpretations that they cannot support with the data.

In the livestream she said something like 'well other studies have dubious methods and nobody criticises them!' (I'm paraphrasing, clearly!), and this is a fair point in that it is depressingly unsurprising that a survey about women is treated with more scrutiny than other types of research. But that doesn't mean that it is ok to ignore the limitations of the sampling, just because others do! I just find it frustrating because it suggests to those looking at the findings that the authors either don't care, or don't understand how population-level statistics work.

On the first page I'm really not an MRA and I'm not trying to discredit the work, I'm just concerned it's bad science and might backfire.

@QuentinBunbury

She also compared people questioning the methodology to people not believing what women say about VAWG which I thought was a bit off. I totally agree with her. That's what it comes across as - "this can't possibly be true, it must be bad science". We have had comments to that effect on this thread.

I think you misunderstand. The work she has done is great for looking at for eg relationships between ethnicity or religion and abuse. It is great for looking at types of abuse and their relative prevalence. It's is great for seeing how young girls as well as adult women are subjected to abuse. No-one on this thread has questioned that.

What it cannot do is say 99.3% of UK women have experienced sexual abuse, or any other extrapolation of the general population. It can say that 99.3% of people recruited to a survey using the words "collect experiences of UK adult women subjected to any form of violence and abuse since birth" have indeed experienced abuse.

Anything collected within the survey is perfectly valid, and will give some very useful information. It just can't be extended to the female population as a whole (just the female population who has experienced abuse) which is a shame as it would be nice to know how much overlap there is.

If only the survey had recruited using a more neutral phrase eg "collect experiences of UK adult women who both have and have not experience abuse or violence".

@allQuentinBunbury Ok, sorry you're right I'd missed that! Maybe I should just clarify that isn't what I am trying to say. I don't want to argue with anyone here - I am sure we ultimately have the same goal, which is trying to improve women's lives.

The problem with this is that eg on Sky News yesterday the broadcaster was horrified that 50% of women had been raped on their sleep, and there was a lot made of this statistic both on the show and on social media. The problem is this statistic isn't true, it's 50% of women surveyed / 50% of abused women. Still shocking, but not at all what the Sky Presenter understood the statistic to mean. And this was not corrected.

People who want to discredit all the work will use this and Victim Focus need to make sure their work is not being misrepresented in this way, and make it really clear what the validity of their statistics is - especially as this isn't an academic paper, it is aimed at the general public who might not read the small print of the stats (of women surveyed).

They don't want people saying that they are chasing publicity by using misleading statistics when this will detract from the really valuable statistics that are valid.

@ItsAllGoingToBeFine agree with everything you've said. I think maybe they need to get a statistician or someone with more quantitative research experience on the team to really make the most of the data, which looks to be rich and potentially fascinating. As far as I am aware neither of them are experts on this type of analysis?

I'm sorry too. This is personal to me,and in real life I've had to listen to so many men tell me that women don't get abused much/it's unusual/I'm unusual that I'm frustrated that straight away the focus with this report is in finding methodological flaws, rather than engaging with the substance of the findings. It comes across as minimising and dismissing to me.

@QuentinBunbury

On the first page I'm really not an MRA and I'm not trying to discredit the work, I'm just concerned it's bad science and might backfire.

That was me. Extrapolating the data to the whole population in the way that is being done in the media, and not corrected by Victim Focus is bad science.

rather than engaging with the substance of the findings

The problem is the substance of the findings doesn't actually illustrate (or say anything at all) about the endemic rates of violence and abuse which is incredibly frustrating.

I completed this survey and made a comment "I just thought it was part of life" - I'm sure I was not the only one.

Yes it was difficult to look back at all the abuse, sexual coercion and and abuse I suffered whislt completing the survey - most of which I thought was totally "normal" - our lives were so dysfuctional back then. There really was no one to talk to about anything and the support I did manage to access just facilitated more sexual abuse under the guise of "caring".

My eldest daughter is now reaching the age I was when everythig went to shit for me. I'm finding it all quite harrowing - I imagine that is a common experience too. I'd like to find a therapist to talk about all this with - can anyone recommend any therapists who can deal with women and are GC? I really couldnt handle any "men are women" madness while trying to unpick the shit I endured because of my sex, and the vulnerablity I experienced becasue of my sex.

@QuentinBunbury

What does that mean? Is it a bum grope in a pub, or is it holding someone down and assaulting them. Both are bad, but there's a clear separation between the two and how you'd tackle them. I don't think that's relevant really. The responses show a large proportion of women will experience serious and less serious assaults. The society that accepts a "bum grope" enables more serious offences. Personally I wish we would crack down on "bum gropes". But we can't even manage to prosecute rapists effectively

It's all about escalation, isn't it.

Here is Noel Clarke, allegedly a serious sexual predator, minimising what he does because as Jessica Taylor's survey says in its title 'I thought it was all just a part of life'.

Clarke said he would apologise to any women he may have made sexually inappropriate remarks about. “If a bunch of people go: he commented on my bum, or he mentioned my tits, it’s like– why do you need to take it this far?” said Clarke. “I’ll just say sorry to you. Tell me and I’ll be like: I’m so sorry. You’re right, I said that, I was wrong.”

I feel the researchers have described their methodology and used a standard one, have looked for and described variations in responses and have highlighted limitations in the findings. Their science is not "bad".

It's almost impossible to run these kind of studies in a way that isn't flawed, because people don't always answer truthfully and the questions might influence the answers. But there is nothing to suggest this study is less reliable than any other of this kind, and the huge sample size surely gives some validity in itself.

I want to talk about what we do to get society to recognise that VAWG is endemic, not isolated incidents.

I want to talk about what we do to get society to recognise that VAWG is endemic, not isolated incidents.

I agree, and it's great so far that the media are using this survey to illustrate just how endemic it is. The problem is that IMO the survey doesn't actually show that, and I'm worried it is going to backfire when people realise that.