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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Carers allowed to help clients visit sex workers

194 replies

StealthPolarBear · 29/04/2021 20:44

words fail me

OP posts:
NiceGerbil · 30/04/2021 13:54

And to reiterate that this has been going on for ages in various settings and past a couple of news articles about it a couple of years back, nothing was done changed or anything.

This case then, is interesting. Because it codifies in law that men must be able to access sex for cash. And what if he's violent? Plenty of men who are violent pay for sex. Rape etc are an occupational hazard that if you see this as an fine and normal is no different to a firefighter walking into possible danger etc.

This is all very very worrying and I really do think it's strategic.

EmbarrassingAdmissions · 30/04/2021 13:58

what would be much better would be for him to have support in understanding and conducting relationships.

The judgment outlines that this young man has a relevant congenital condition (affects his chromosomes and development of sexual characteristics) into which he has some insight about the impact on the likelihood of him acquiring a girlfriend and developing a relationship from there.

PearPickingPorky · 30/04/2021 14:01

"if you can't find a woman who will consent to having sex with you, don't worry, give us some cash and we'll find you a woman who can't afford to say no"

TurquoiseLemur · 30/04/2021 14:13

@Glasstabletop

No, there isn’t but there is a difference where the person in question needs the assistance of someone else to obtain these services. There is no right to obtain sexual services that one cannot obtain due to disability. This is because nobody has a right to sex even if they really really want to

There is a right to do whatever you want within the law. Why is this man not allowed to do what every other man can? Nobody has the right to go horse riding or go the pub or sit for 8 hours at an airport watching planes but all those things may be part of a care plan because they are perfectly legal activities that the average person can participate in if they wish.

Buying sex is immoral. It's horrifying, it is not morally comparable to any of the above activities but it is legal. It is an option for all other men.

Why isn't he "allowed"? As I understand it, he has major problems in understanding consent. (As do far too many men generally, not just those with additional needs.)

In other words, he has been considered a threat to women. Now, in addition to all that, he will be aware that a court of law has ruled that he has a right to sex. What could possibly go wrong?!

TurquoiseLemur · 30/04/2021 14:20

@NiceGerbil

'"It is important to recognise that those with mental health disorders have, in the past, effectively been prevented, by the law, from engaging in sexual relations," said the judge.'

Mental health disorders? When have people with mental health disorders been prevented from sex? Something like 20% of the adult population is on ADs... What on earth does he mean?

I think the judge doesn't understand the difference between "mental health disorders" and "learning disabilities." He isn't alone in this, unfortunat6ely. More than once I, as a carer for my son, have had to explain the difference to police officers and even to a couple of GPs.

"Mental health disorders" is far too vague as a phrase. As is "in the past." But I think that what the judge is alluding to is the time when many people with learning disabilities, autism, etc, were institutionalized in those old Victorian places. And they were often treated throughout their lives as overgrown children, the assumption being that they had no sexual drive. This was the norm right up until the 1980s.

TopBlogger · 30/04/2021 14:27

I had to do this in a previous job. SN guy, sex mad. As part of his care plan we had to facilitate him having a visit from a sex worker. His parents were horrified, but it was his human right and we were there for help him have a "normal life"

EmbarrassingAdmissions · 30/04/2021 14:34

@TopBlogger

I had to do this in a previous job. SN guy, sex mad. As part of his care plan we had to facilitate him having a visit from a sex worker. His parents were horrified, but it was his human right and we were there for help him have a "normal life"
Did you do this: as part of your job specification? or because you agreed that it was an appropriate part of his care package and you were willing to support it?

Would the judgment in this case reassure you that you are probably never likely to be prosecuted for facilitating such an arrangement?

ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 30/04/2021 14:46

but it was his human right and we were there for help him have a "normal life"

This is the bit in general that I really don't agree with. Having sex isn't a human right. Buying an unwilling woman to use is definitely not a human right.

Maggiesfarm · 30/04/2021 14:54

@TopBlogger

I had to do this in a previous job. SN guy, sex mad. As part of his care plan we had to facilitate him having a visit from a sex worker. His parents were horrified, but it was his human right and we were there for help him have a "normal life"
Was that really written into your employment contract?
MammaSchwifty · 30/04/2021 15:29

from the first paragraph of the article:
The ruling found it would be wrong to stop them helping a 27-year-old man with mental disabilities fulfilling a natural desire.

So a man's desires have to be fulfilled, no matter how? Of course.

Bloody hell, since when is sex a human right to which people are entitled? To be taken by force when not supplied freely and willingly? Isn't there a word for that?

MammaSchwifty · 30/04/2021 15:30

but it was his human right and we were there for help him have a "normal life"

Eh? Sex isn't a human right though?

5zeds · 30/04/2021 15:33

There is nothing “normal” about paying someone to have sex with you. I don’t know a single person who has ever admitted to doing that. Why? Because it’s aberrant abusive behaviour.

EmbarrassingAdmissions · 30/04/2021 15:49

Eh? Sex isn't a human right though?

There is a right to appeal by the Secretary of State. It might challenge interpretation of sex as an extension of Art 8 rights or consider carers' rights under Art 9.

Maggiesfarm · 30/04/2021 16:32

The ruling found it would be wrong to stop them helping a 27-year-old man with mental disabilities fulfilling a natural desire.

I hope there is no ruling that it would be wrong for a carer to refuse to facilitate the above.

IloveJKRowling · 30/04/2021 16:44

What about the 'needs' of any female carers to feel safe, dignified and free from harassment in the workplace?

There is no way - NO WAY - any female carer should be expected to do this as part of her job.

That's before you even get to the rights and wrongs of prostitution.

ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 30/04/2021 16:48

Good piece in the Spectator:

www.spectator.co.uk/article/disabled-men-don-t-have-a-right-to-use-prostitutes/

Since when was paying for access to the inside of a person’s body for one-sided sexual gratification a ‘natural desire’?

This ruling will have the effect of further destigmatising paying for sex, and will set back the campaign to abolish commercial sexual exploitation in this country, which many feminists and other human rights activists campaign for. It is time to speak out loud and clear against disabled people being held up as a handy smokescreen for pimps and exploiters.

Nonmaquillee · 30/04/2021 16:50

Fucksake.
Talking about a woman as if she were a commodity.
Where's the voice of the potential "sex worker" in this??

mermaidsariel · 30/04/2021 16:53

@TopBlogger

I had to do this in a previous job. SN guy, sex mad. As part of his care plan we had to facilitate him having a visit from a sex worker. His parents were horrified, but it was his human right and we were there for help him have a "normal life"
I actually can't believe I am reading this.
EmbarrassingAdmissions · 30/04/2021 16:55

I've no idea if anyone here is interested in registering or is eligible but Kings' Chambers is running a relevant seminar on May 5.

Mr Justice Hayden presided over the case of C, a young man with Klinefelter syndrome and autism spectrum disorder. While deprived of his liberty in a supported living placement, C expressed to his advocate that he would like to access sex workers in order to be able to engage in sexual relations. C was found to have capacity to engage in sexual relations and to have contact with sex workers.

The issue for Mr Justice Hayden to consider was whether a care plan to facilitate C’s contact with sex workers could be implemented without the commission of an offence under the Sexual Offences Act 2003 (SOA 2003). In the event that it could not, the Court was invited to consider the Human Rights Act 1998.

C’s representatives argued that the care plan envisaged was outside the scope of Section 39 of the SOA 2003, which criminalises care workers who are found to be causing or inciting sexual activity. The local authority agreed with this interpretation. On behalf of the clinical commissioning group, Sam Karim QC and Aisling Campbell invited the Court to determine the lawfulness of the care plan, having regard to the need to promote C’s personal autonomy while protecting him and those providing his care.

On the other hand, the Secretary of State for Justice contended that a construction of Section 39 of the SOA that rendered lawful a carer’s assistance to C in securing the services of a sex worker would mean going beyond the wording of the legislation and would amount to an amendment of the law, as opposed to an interpretation.

Having considered the legislative purpose of the SOA 2003 and the Code for Crown Prosecutors, Mr Justice Hayden found that the care plan contemplated was far removed from the mischief of the relevant provisions. To interpret the SOA 2003 as encompassing the proposed care plan would mean distorting the plain language of the statute and subverting the legislative objectives (i.e. criminalising serious breaches of trust in the sphere of sexual relations). Moreover, Mr Justice Hayden concluded that C’s Article 8 rights were engaged and that a restrictive interpretation of Section 39 of the SOA 2003 would apply disproportionately to those with a mental disorder (therefore amounting to an Article 14 violation).

Accordingly, Mr Justice Hayden concluded that it was not necessary to deploy Section 3 of the Human Rights Act 1998 as he had been able to give the words of the SOA 2003 their natural and obvious meaning. However, Mr Justice Hayden clarified that he would not have had difficulty in interpreting Section 39 of the SOA 2003 in a Convention-compliant way.

Mr Justice Hayden subsequently granted permission to the Secretary of State to appeal.

The full judgments appear here: www.bailii.org/cgi-bin/format.cgi?doc=/ew/cases/EWCOP/2021/25.html

www.bailii.org/cgi-bin/format.cgi?doc=/ew/cases/EWCOP/2021/26.html&query=(%22hayden%22)

On Wednesday 5th May 2021, Sam Karim QC, Aisling Campbell and Fay Collinson are delivering a seminar that will address the issues in the case, including those arising for financial deputies

www.kingschambers.com/latest-news/news/2021/04/29/sam-karim-qc-and-aisling-campbell-appear-before-mr-justice-hayden-in-a-court-of-protection-matter-concerning-p%E2%80%99s-engagement-in-sexual-relations-with-sex-workers/

Maggiesfarm · 30/04/2021 16:55

@IloveJKRowling

What about the 'needs' of any female carers to feel safe, dignified and free from harassment in the workplace?

There is no way - NO WAY - any female carer should be expected to do this as part of her job.

That's before you even get to the rights and wrongs of prostitution.

I do agree. I don't think it can be enforced, nor will ever, but there will be some carers who don't mind I suppose.
StealthPolarBear · 30/04/2021 17:21

How long before a hybrid carer/routine sex giver role exists?

OP posts:
Maggiesfarm · 30/04/2021 17:34

@StealthPolarBear

How long before a hybrid carer/routine sex giver role exists?
I'm sure they already do exist in some private homes. They wouldn't advertise the fact though.
hatgirl · 30/04/2021 17:47

I'm sure they already do exist in some private homes. They wouldn't advertise the fact though

I'm well aware as a social worker that there are many women who offer 'companionship' to vulnerable men in exchange for financial gain, be that cold hard cash or gifts/ accommodation/ living costs.

Whether we view it as abuse of vulnerable adults or not basically hinges on the power balance in the relationship and the vulnerable adult's capacity.

I note from the bit pasted by EmbarrassingAdmissions that it's the CCG that has brought it before the COP. That means the NHS rather than the local authority fund his care either under Continuing Healthcare or under S117 funding (or if he is detained under the mental health act, but the information seems to suggest he is living in supported living).

ginandbearit · 30/04/2021 17:54

There are sex workers who are actively working with people with physical and intellectual disabilities as well as volunteers..Tuppy Owens founded Outsiders to help people with disabilities have a sexual life. This has been happening for years, back in the eighties I worked with clients who had this service provided, it was kept pretty quiet as the fear was the red top.press getting hold of the story and putting their own vile twist to it ...no staff objected , quite the opposite, and a radical feminist house leader was very pro it happening within safe boundaries .

SmokedDuck · 30/04/2021 18:37

@IloveJKRowling

Maybe his carers are all men but what I am getting at is that may this not put any female carers at increased risk?

This is a good point.

I personally wouldn't want to work for any man that used prostitutes as I think it displays a level of misogyny (buying a woman, women are 'lesser than') which would be harmful to me, as a woman, in the workplace.

I hope that any female carer is appraised of the facts around this individual before they are left alone with him.

That's fine, just don't ever work in health care or social work, etc

This is the thing with people who need care, they aren't necessarily all nice and placid and without moral and common human foibles. And they aren't required to be to be eligible for care.