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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

'Gender at birth'

52 replies

Chewbecca · 29/04/2021 13:21

The above is requested on a form to book a Bupa medical appointment.

It's inaccurate isn't it? Gender isn't assigned at birth and it's simply the sex they need to know, surely?

OP posts:
ChewtonRoad · 29/04/2021 19:50

It's inaccurate isn't it?

Inaccurate, wrong, inappropriate, batshit crazy, and ludicrous that an organisation like BUPA would think such a thing acceptable.

Nonmaquillee · 29/04/2021 22:20

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

SmellsLikeTeenBedroom · 30/04/2021 07:24

@MarshaBradyo

Terrible

Sex

The trouble is, "sex" has more than one meaning too. It can mean male/female or it can refer to the physical act of sexual intercourse. I think many people use the word gender to sex because it feels like a less embarrassing word, rather than for ideological reasons.

It's a real problem that there us no word in the English language which refers exclusively to one's male/female status.

MarshaBradyo · 30/04/2021 07:27

Actually I rarely see sex as option

Usually it’s

Female
Male
Prefer not to say (other)

Gender at birth sounds like a hash at mangled language we’re seeing now

sharksarecool · 30/04/2021 10:07

If there's only 2 options then it's clear they know that there are two sexes, even if they've called it gender instead. So that's a good thing at least...

sharksarecool · 30/04/2021 10:23

The issue is this:

Gender =
a) an alternative word to describe one's biological sex
b) a set of roles and expectations forced upon individuals based on their sex
c) your inner sense of identity based largely on what clothes you like to wear and whether you prefer trucks or mermaids
d) an "umbrella term" for whatever the person saying the word wants it to mean

BUT
Sex =
a) either the two categories of male and female into which mammals are divided based on their sexual organs or chromosomes
b) the physical act of intercourse, in which a penis enters a vagina

So unfortunately, both terms have more than one meaning, and both words CAN refer to biological sex. I would suggest that word "sex" is preferable, because it's harder to get confused between the two meanings of the word "sex" (except all those hilarious people who respond "yes please!" on forms which require which ask for their sex). Unfortunately, however, lots of people also are embarrassed by the word "sex", so opt to use "gender" instead because that word doesn't also double up as a word for shagging.

MammaSchwifty · 30/04/2021 10:27

ah I think I know this one, let me see if I can clear up the confusion. If your gender at birth was female, you were born wearing a little pink bow on your head, if your gender was male, when you came out you must have been holding a little football or something like that.

Chewbecca · 30/04/2021 12:56

They’ve replied with a holding comment:

Thank you for taking the time to contact us about your concerns. I have passed your email to our Health Assessment complaints team who will be in touch shortly

OP posts:
mollythemeerkat · 30/04/2021 13:03

Thin end of the wedge when everything starts being called gender. Precision matters in medecine so why make language more obscure than it needs to be.

Shizuku · 30/04/2021 13:13

They are using "gender" as a synonym for "sex" which is a standard usage. Try looking it up in the OED. See section 3:

www.oed.com/viewdictionaryentry/Entry/77468

AssassinatedBeauty · 30/04/2021 13:16

Better to be clear and specific, to avoid any unnecessary confusion on a medical form. Hopefully they will come back and clarify that they mean sex.

murbblurb · 30/04/2021 13:18

Why not just have ' please tick the box to advise the organs you had a) at birth and b) now ' and then give a list. That's the medically relevant bit.

YetAnotherSpartacus · 30/04/2021 13:39

My chromosomes are ...

Gasp0deTheW0nderD0g · 30/04/2021 13:40

It's not just organs, though. Chromosomes/genes, endocrine system, skeleton, immune system, reproductive status - all relevant medically.

Gasp0deTheW0nderD0g · 30/04/2021 13:43

For medical purposes, it's absolutely essential to be able to talk clearly about whether a patient is female or male. I would prefer to use just 'sex' for that purpose. If we want to talk about all the baggage that comes with being female or male, by all means have a different word, but the two need to be clearly distinguished.

Seainasive · 30/04/2021 13:54

I’m job hunting at the moment and have had to fill in so many equality forms that completely muddle sex and gender! Not really in a position to challenge them though unless I want to stay unemployed!

Cailleach1 · 30/04/2021 14:05

@Gasp0deTheW0nderD0g

It's not just organs, though. Chromosomes/genes, endocrine system, skeleton, immune system, reproductive status - all relevant medically.
Yes. Every cell in a males's body will be XY and every cell in a female body will be XX. They are not just neutral cells which take can be washed over with the rates of opposite sex hormones and be expected to always react the same.
Gottalife · 30/04/2021 14:17

[quote R0wantrees]BUPA should be very aware of the risks to patients if they confuse sex and gender/gender identity.

An individual's sex is observed and recorded at birth, it is often known before birth.

Anne Harper-Wright's article concerns the NHS but it is to be expected that BUPA has same risk awareness and standards:
(extract)
"The NHS understands the clear distinction between sex and gender.

The NHS, in addition to treating patients by biological sex, are legally bound to respect a person’s ‘gender identity’ too, should they declare one. Biological sex remains immutable, and important. Medical treatment of the sexes differs between males and females. Male and female anatomy, genetics, reproductive organs, diseases, response to drugs are critically different. To overwrite a patient’s biological sex in a medical record with their gender identity would be dangerous. The NHS was so concerned about inadvertent confusion between the two concepts that it took careful action to ensure it could keep a record of both.

The NHS Sex and Gender Standards
In 2005, shortly after the Gender Recognition Act was made law, an NHS exercise was commenced to standardise patient information and data within the various IT systems across the NHS. Within this exercise a suite of documentation was created, dedicated to designing a system architecture that could attempt to cope with the challenges specific to using BOTH sex AND gender as data.
Because the consequences of an NHS mix up between sex and gender was recognised as dire. And this risk was noted in several NHS documents, produced by the Microsoft Health Common User Interface team. The following quotes link to the NHS documents for public viewing.
“The term ‘Gender’ is now considered too ambiguous to be desirable or safe”
“Users may confuse the terms current gender and sex, or assume that they are synonymous”
“It is therefore desirable to use the two distinct terms ‘Sex’ and ‘Current Gender’ “
“The Current Gender input controls are used to record the gender, according to how a patient currently describes themselves, whereas the Sex input controls records their phenotypic sex”
~NHS Sex and Current Gender Input and Display User Interface Design Guidance

The NHS went to a lot of trouble and expense designing a database to hold our medical records that wouldn’t mix up our sex with our ‘gender identity’ if we professed to have one. The NHS CANNOT ignore sex, even if the law says gender identity trumps it. And the design guidance is very clear: capture ‘gender feelings’ if you must, but the NHS categorically must record SEX separately, or people will get hurt. Do not overwrite physical reality with feelings on medical records.
The NHS is very clear when sex means sex, and when gender means something entirely different. They have an entire suite of published “Sex and Gender” Information Standards which makes the distinction between the two concepts crystal clear."

medium.com/@anneharperwright/sex-gender-the-nhs-1e8f4e6363a6[/quote]
That link is to some GC propaganda.

The NHS view is this.

If a patient requests administrative changes to their medical records, this should be actioned from the date of the patient’s request. For example, if a patient requests their name and gender to be changed on their records, any reference to their previous name and gender should be removed and their new name and gender should be used going forward.

As doctors are required to keep accurate records, no clinical records created before the change of gender should be changed or deleted. However, patients may request to have factual errors in the records corrected and notes added to reflect their views.

Patients that request a new medical record may understandably be concerned about the confidentiality of their previous records under their old NHS number. Unless an alternative has been discussed and agreed with the patient, previous medical records should be filed with the CCG (or the BSC if in Wales). No reference to the old NHS number should be made on the new record.

GreyhoundG1rl · 30/04/2021 14:28

No reference to the old NHS number should be made on the new record.
Under what circumstances are you issued a new NHS Number? Shock. I thought this never happened ever.

Cailleach1 · 30/04/2021 14:48

Can anyone change their NHS number, then? If not everyone, why anyone? With notes added to reflect their views? It is not clear what 'views' are? Views are different from factual inaccuracies.

R0wantrees · 30/04/2021 15:10

Sex, Gender & the NHS part 2 by Anne Harper Wright
(extract)
Q: How does the NHS make the distinction between sex and gender on our medical records?
A: They’re supposed to record BOTH.
(continues)

And the documentation prescribing the architecture of the systems is liberally peppered with warnings about the consequences of conflating the two. Sex and Gender are NOT the same thing, and confusion has serious consequences. (continues)

Having ascertained what the sex fields and gender fields are in our medical records, and having read the NHS documents determining how the data should be entered and used, I was confident that my own personal medical record would reflect the safety guidance. And perhaps look something like the linked examples above:
e.g. Sex = Female, Gender = unknown.
I submitted my Subject Access Request to my local hospital to look at my own medical record data.
And what I found was this.
My personal medical record sex field is BLANK. Unpopulated.

In a disturbing turn of events, the hospital that cared for me in pregnancy and childbirth, twice, doesn’t know what physical sex I am.
It is sure, however, that I have a ladybrain, though. Because there it is on my medical record. I have definitely never discussed my inner femininity with any doctor that I recall. I don’t remember asking that my adherence to stereotypes, or ladybrain mentality be captured on my medical record. Nevertheless, here it is, my female ‘gender identity’ that I didn’t know I had (continues)

Should sex ever be unpopulated? Categorically, NO.
Gender, for those — and ONLY for those — that wish to have their feelings noted on their medical records, should remain the preserve of polite honorifics and pronouns in correspondence. Administrative communication purposes. Not medical treatment, not national screening programmes, not data analysis of medical outcomes and treatment.
medium.com/@anneharperwright/sex-gender-the-nhs-bb86b0c3ebb

R0wantrees · 30/04/2021 15:13

Patients that request a new medical record may understandably be concerned about the confidentiality of their previous records under their old NHS number.

Patients should be more concerned with accessing optimum health care. Corrupting medical records risks compromised treatment.

GreyhoundG1rl · 30/04/2021 15:13

@R0wantrees

Patients that request a new medical record may understandably be concerned about the confidentiality of their previous records under their old NHS number.

Patients should be more concerned with accessing optimum health care. Corrupting medical records risks compromised treatment.

It's bewildering...
TeenMinusTests · 30/04/2021 15:31

@Cailleach1

Can anyone change their NHS number, then? If not everyone, why anyone? With notes added to reflect their views? It is not clear what 'views' are? Views are different from factual inaccuracies.
A bit off topic, but for info; when a child is adopted they are issued with a new NHS number.
Gottalife · 30/04/2021 15:45

And this from the General Medical Council.

www.gmc-uk.org/ethical-guidance/ethical-hub/trans-healthcare#confidentiality-and-equality

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