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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Residentials and mixed sex accommodation

31 replies

Novina · 26/04/2021 11:57

Hi,

Wondering if anyone can help with info - my searches have drawn a blank.

My children are interested in residental schemes run by various organisations, but on looking into them at a policy level it seems they don't offer single-sex sleeping/washing facilities (only single gender, which could mean anything).

I'm wondering what, if any, rules exist re safeguarding of children who are away on trips. Is it just up to the organisation to decide their policy? Is there an overarching principle, or best practice, or piece of legislation? I asked SSA, but no reply so far - which is fair enough as this isn't about schools.

Posting in feminism section as I thought you might have the most relevant expertise. Plus it's where I tend to hang out on mn. Smile

TIA

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WarriorN · 26/04/2021 12:19

That's a good point; I'd probably be calling the places directly for clarification.

I bet they actually mean sex when they use gender. But of course these days that's a green light to mixed sex as an individual's "gender identity might not match their sex..."

WarriorN · 26/04/2021 12:22

Given children can't officially change sex till 18, it should be single sex still.

I'd love to know Mermaids policy on their residentials on this.

LostInTime · 26/04/2021 12:28

There's a really good thread on this issue about the national brass band. It's pretty recent, if you search. There was a superb letter(email) composed by the OP that had a swift, positive response.

Novina · 26/04/2021 12:28

Hi WarriorN thanks for your reply. Unfortunately they don't mean sex when they say gender. I know because I asked. Looking at their policies it's quite clear that they run a 'use whatever facilities you feel comfortable in' policy, whilst telling parents it's single sex. When I asked for clarification they admitted it wasn't single sex.

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Novina · 26/04/2021 12:29

Oh, thanks LostInTime, I'll have a look.

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WarriorN · 26/04/2021 12:32

Ah crap, sorry. Rather leaving themselves open to issues there.

Searching that thread sounds good.

ChloeCrocodile · 26/04/2021 12:33

Speak to the organisations. If they don't see the safeguarding implications of mixed sex accommodation / toileting facilities I wouldn't trust their judgement at all tbh. It is entirely possible, though, that they are using the word gender the way most people do - as a straight forward replacement for the word "sex" because they don't like the other connotations of the word sex.

As for legislation, I don't think there is much tbh. There is for schools though (building regulations), and I'd expect those running residentials for school aged children should be following the same.

LostInTime · 26/04/2021 12:34

Its this one: was national youth BB

ChloeCrocodile · 26/04/2021 12:34

Sorry, cross posted. In that case, they don't understand fairly basic safeguarding and I wouldn't let DC go.

LostInTime · 26/04/2021 12:34

X-post, sorry!

Beamur · 26/04/2021 12:36

I would ask what measures they have in place for privacy and dignity for all children.
I'd also ask if they have done a risk assessment for mixed sex/single gender facilities. Given that the expectations of most parents for children above 8 would be single sex.

Beamur · 26/04/2021 12:38

It may be that the way it's arranged us fine. But I would want to be sure.
Any kind of response in saying problems would be dealt with isn't really good enough. You want to entrust your child to a place where the problems have been pre-empted and ameliorated.

Novina · 26/04/2021 12:46

Thanks for the links. I'm trying to be quite circumspect here as I am still dealing with the organisation, but I am really quite concerned (as is dd, and I think it's very unlikely she will attend). This is a large government funded charity that takes teenagers from all over the country, that tells parents the accommodation will be single sex whilst not operating in that manner at all, and having all their policy docs written in ways m*rmaids and the like would be proud of.

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persistentwoman · 26/04/2021 12:56

Novina
If Safe Schools Alliance UK haven't covered this yet, I bet they would help if you contact them. They cover most aspects of education but I suspect most of the residential organisations / boarding schools are keeping very quiet about this fearing either a twitter pile on from the lobby groups or loss of business from parents horrified at the safeguarding implications.
Here's a link to their resources about single sex changing etc:

safeschoolsallianceuk.net/resources-2/factsheets/#Single_Sex_Toilets_and_Changing_Facilities_factsheet

Their website is very informative.

Novina · 26/04/2021 13:04

Hi persistentwoman I have contacted SSA, but nothing yet. I'll nudge them again and see if they're interested. I thought they'd have the best info at a policy level. I have used their info with my childrens school (bloody 'gender neutral' toilets) but am struggling with this being some sort of charitable structure and not knowing what rules apply.

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WarriorN · 26/04/2021 13:11

Contact Baroness Nicholson via Twitter. She may have advice . This is a significant safeguarding issue, especially if it's a large government funded charity.

persistentwoman · 26/04/2021 13:13

OP, I think the poster 2falls is in contact with them so have linked her as she was posting on the NSPCC / Childline thread:

@2fallsagain - can you help?

2fallsagain · 26/04/2021 13:17

@novina I think I saw your email. Can you email us again? don't worry about nudging us we get so many emails sometimes they get overlooked.

2fallsagain · 26/04/2021 13:18

Essentially safeguarding rules should still apply and any educational establishment should be following the Keeping children safer in education guidelines. SSAUK does have a letter about residential trips in schools, the guidelines really should be the same: safeschoolsallianceuk.net/resources-2/letter-templates/#Single-sex_facilities_on_school_trips_letter

Novina · 26/04/2021 13:20

Thanks 2falls, will email again.

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R0wantrees · 26/04/2021 13:26

This is a large government funded charity that takes teenagers from all over the country, that tells parents the accommodation will be single sex whilst not operating in that manner at all, and having all their policy docs written in ways mrmaids and the like would be proud of.*

Useful article by ExcelPope (a school governor) identifying how Safeguarding should work. Its a good one to send to those with ultimate responsibility for the organisation.
They are on very shaky ground.

(extract)
"I spend a lot of time designing policies and procedures, and what I tell people is this:- Imagine a worst-case scenario occurs. There is an official investigation, where you’re asked “What did you do to prevent this happening?”. Now imagine what answer you’d like to be able to give to that question in that scenario – that’s the starting point for writing your policies.

In that vein, here’s a scenario.

You are the head-teacher of a secondary school, with pupils aged 11-18. A police officer arrives at the school and asks to speak to you. They have found a video on a porn site which shows the changing-rooms at your school, including a number of girls, who appear to be aged 13-15, in various states of undress. It has clearly been filmed with a concealed camera-phone.

The video has been taken down, but not before it had tens of thousands of views. The account that posted it has been traced to a student at the school who identifies themselves as trans and was, in accordance with the guidance, allowed to use the female changing rooms.

The police need a female member of staff to view the video with them, to identify the 20 or 30 teenage girls who appear in it, so that they and their parents can be informed that they have been victims of voyeurism.

What did you do to prevent this happening?" (continues)

There are around 2.2 million males aged 13-18 in the UK, no matter how much experience you have with children, with trans people, with trans-children, you cannot absolutely assert that none of them will abuse, or attempt to abuse, the guidance given in a manner that infringes of the rights of other students.

This isn’t about demonising all trans people, or suggesting that any given one of them would act in such a manner. This is about the risk presented by the guidance itself, whether that risk can be mitigated in a manner which is proportional to the potential seriousness of the outcome and whether the risk is, in part or in whole, outweighed by the risks of not implementing the guidance." (continues)

excelpope.wordpress.com/2019/02/28/the-unaskable-question/

VoluminousVagina · 26/04/2021 13:29

It's only a starting point but even the NSPCC thinks that children over the age of 10 should be separated by sex for sleeping arrangements at home.
www.nspcc.org.uk/keeping-children-safe/in-the-home/sharing-a-bedroom/

The British Council appear to regulate PGL, the major kids holiday company
www.britishcouncil.org/sites/default/files/pgl_travel_full_2017_reviewed.pdf

I haven't got more than that I'm afraid - I'm sure one of our knowledgeable members will know who is supposed to regulate the children's holiday companies

PGL (the only big org I know of) say they segregate accommodation by sex and that it is against the rules to enter the accommodation of the opposite sex. There isn't an entry for 'gender' on the website which gives some hope that they haven't got a secret policy somewhere that overrides the single sex accommodation policy (like they do in the NHS)

Ofsted might regulate some children's holiday organisations?

VoluminousVagina · 26/04/2021 13:31

If they insist on same gender, ask what comeback you have if your DD comes home from her holiday pregnant (assuming that she's old enough)?

Novina · 26/04/2021 13:34

These are really helpful links, thank you so much.

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