Meet the Other Phone. Flexible and made to last.

Meet the Other Phone.
Flexible and made to last.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Maya Forstater's appeal skeleton

999 replies

Mollyollydolly · 25/04/2021 13:21

Saw this on twitter and thought it deserved a thread to itself.

As Jason Braler (employment lawyer) says on twitter "It's more a thesis than a traditional skeleton, but it certainly drives home the points from every conceivable angle.
It may also be the only ever EAT skeleton to have 4 references to Orwell"

hiyamaya.files.wordpress.com/2021/04/forstater-eat-claimant-skeleton-argument-plus-low-res-pages-1-50.pdf

OP posts:
Thread gallery
8
JackieLavertysWeirdVoice · 27/04/2021 17:42

I hope when Maya wins she goes after the Independent for an apology for that travesty of an article. It's inaccurate and has an air of the malicious about it.

ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 27/04/2021 17:42

I think rather a lot of people are watching this

There are a lot of legal people / commentators talking about it on twitter.

nauticant · 27/04/2021 17:43

I presume the government are watching this? Or have watchers on it?

I wouldn't be surprised. The Home Office had a couple of people attending the Miller vs Policing case to monitor what was going on.

littlbrowndog · 27/04/2021 17:43

Maya

Maya Forstater's appeal skeleton
yourhairiswinterfire · 27/04/2021 17:44

They gave an example that if an atheist made constant comments to a religious individual about 'seeing fairy unicorns' then that might be harrasment.

Yes, they clearly stated the difference between discussing beliefs in a respectful way and harassing someone.

Relevent tweets:

Sex Matters
@SexMattersOrg

Last general proposition is that even if balancing were required, it's not the case that any reference to a trans person's biological sex necessarily amounts to an interference with their rights.

C's views are entirely mainstream and not inherently bigoted. Indeed, almost universal except in a very narrow slice of society.

Thinking about the way these kinds of conflicts play out. Take an example a bit removed from this case.

I'm a gay atheist. Suppose I have a colleague who thinks being gay is sinful. I find his belief very offensive. He might find my belief that his religion is little more than a fairy-tale offensive.

How does that work in the workplace? If every time he sees me he says I'm an abomination, or I keep asking him if he's seen unicorns recently, that's harassment.

If we're academics debating the existence of god or sexual morality, we must be entitled to refer to each other's individual protected characteristics even if the other person is upset.

That's particular case of a general rule that it is permissible to refer to beliefs where it is relevant.

People can't be expected to be too squeamish about what they talk about at work. So if the workplace is one where people do discuss controversial issues, that won't necessarily amount to discrimination or harassment.

May be harassment depending on the particular circumstances. You can't use a one size fits all rule.

So if someone with C's views deliberately uses pronouns other than those preferred by a trans colleague, that may amount to harassment. But not harassment if done respectfully in the context of a proper discussion.

CardinalLolzy · 27/04/2021 17:48

[quote Unsure33]@CardinalLolzy

Yes sorry I was just commenting on a comment on here about the wording of the case .

Apologies I was no trying to derail . Trying to understand the terms .[/quote]
Sorry I didn't mean you were derailing! Agree it's hard to follow if you're not too familiar with the initial case and judgement (that this is appealing). Lots of people are trying to misrepresent what it's about - Maya effectively lost her job for stating her belief that there are two sexes which are fixed and unchangeable. This was deemed unacceptable because in the few cases where biological sex needs to be discussed honestly (safeguarding, risk assessments, sport, crime recording, etc) it might bec offensive to people who choose to "live as" (what that actually means is unclear) the opposite sex to the one they were born as.

The details of the appeal seem quite technical in places so you're not the only one trying to understand the terms!

ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 27/04/2021 17:49

It seems that the EHRC have made some things clear in their statement. Does this now count as legal precedent / clarifying the law in a way people can use as precedent?

Shizuku · 27/04/2021 17:50

@ChazsBrilliantAttitude

Shizuku If you followed the case you will see that there is a distinction between holding a belief and manifesting a belief. So you couldn’t necessarily refuse to renew the contract of a far right member of staff who didn’t do anything to inappropriately manifest those beliefs i.e. solely for holding the belief.
Thanks for the clarification. So Forstater, should only be declined a position if she manifests those beliefs in the workplace?
Maya Forstater's appeal skeleton
Lisz · 27/04/2021 17:52

This will be much like that ruling in favour of the weirdos who wouldn’t bake a cake for two gay people. Lots of crying and screaming and shouting for years but.. did it do anything useful for them and their cause when they eventually won? Most people just thought the bakers were a pair of total wankers. Didn’t change a thing unless I’m forgetting something.

Then one of their other cake shops caught fire in a storm and burned down.

highame · 27/04/2021 17:52

This isn't a derail but I have been thinking about the Victorians and the Mill owners who built houses and workplaces and chapels all in close proximity and employed only those who were virtuous. There are similarities with employers expecting their employees to behave in their preferred way. It is a backward step and does nothing to progress equality. I wonder what the impact will be on our massive HR growth industry if Maya wins (am being realistic just in case)

Signalbox · 27/04/2021 17:52

Thanks for the clarification. So Forstater, should only be declined a position if she manifests those beliefs in the workplace?

Maya didn't work with Gregor Murray.

Fieldoftheclothofgold · 27/04/2021 17:52

So Forstater, should only be declined a position if she manifests those beliefs in the workplace?

I don’t think it’s that simple. It depends why/how they’re manifested.

titchy · 27/04/2021 17:55

So Forstater, should only be declined a position if she manifests those beliefs in the workplace?

INAPPROPRIATELY manifests them. What is inappropriate in one setting will be entirely appropriate in another. As has been explained. Perhaps you should follow the case?

As an aside it's very late where you are shiz - do you ever go to bed?

Shizuku · 27/04/2021 17:55

@Fieldoftheclothofgold

So Forstater, should only be declined a position if she manifests those beliefs in the workplace?

I don’t think it’s that simple. It depends why/how they’re manifested.

How about deliberately misgendering a colleague?
ChazsBrilliantAttitude · 27/04/2021 17:55

Shizuku
No you really need to read around this subject more. She is allowed to manifest them in the workplace. She may even upset someone when she does so. That would not justify not renewing her contract if she was manifesting her beliefs reasonably in the context.

CardinalLolzy · 27/04/2021 17:56

@Lisz

This will be much like that ruling in favour of the weirdos who wouldn’t bake a cake for two gay people. Lots of crying and screaming and shouting for years but.. did it do anything useful for them and their cause when they eventually won? Most people just thought the bakers were a pair of total wankers. Didn’t change a thing unless I’m forgetting something.

Then one of their other cake shops caught fire in a storm and burned down.

That was discussed earlier in the thread, alongside discussion about how it being about "not baking a cake" was incorrect. It was an interesting one, it was about forcing people to write something they didn't believe (compelled speech).
ChazsBrilliantAttitude · 27/04/2021 17:56

Well as MF didn’t deliberately misgender a colleague it’s a moot point.

Shizuku · 27/04/2021 17:57

@ChazsBrilliantAttitude

Shizuku No you really need to read around this subject more. She is allowed to manifest them in the workplace. She may even upset someone when she does so. That would not justify not renewing her contract if she was manifesting her beliefs reasonably in the context.
I'm not clear if she would be allowed to misgender trans colleagues in the workplace.
ChazsBrilliantAttitude · 27/04/2021 17:58

Shizuku

Why don’t you do some reading and come back with your interpretation on that question.

Signalbox · 27/04/2021 17:58

How about deliberately misgendering a colleague?

She didn't deliberately misgender a colleague though.

CardinalLolzy · 27/04/2021 17:59

Shizuku, why don't you just read the actual documents pertaining to the case? They're not too complicated. Maya's witness statement is easy to find. You've already shown your assumptions about what you imagine the case to be to be embarrassingly incorrect - it's all out there, we don't need to write it all out again for you, do we?

Anovaneway · 27/04/2021 17:59

Please explain?

Ok I will do

As in an informal fallacy based on a premise that erroneously limits what options are available.

The setting up of those two phrases as though they’re always mutually exclusive. To propagate as fact that recognising trans rights, including those enshrined in law via the GRA means that children aren’t safe. That recognising people’s acquired sex is incompatible with safety.
Also what therefore follows is that the only way we can keep women and girls safe is by being able to call trans women men.

R0wantrees · 27/04/2021 17:59

'Could the EHRC be the first captured public body to be liberated?'

The EHRC QC Karon Monaghan stated:
(SexMatters live tweeting)
"EHRC not taking a position on the underlying matters of controversy. But pointing out where the ET got the law wrong: had it got the law right, it would have been bound to find C's belief protected.

EHRC takes no issue with the points made by BCQC, so can be short."

"Final point. You heard from BC that the law treats sex as biologically determined and binary, and gender as a social attribute - so making a distinction between binary sex and gender.

Many will find that view controversial. But both that belief and the contrary are protected.

The EqA itself provides exemptions in relation to public functions in relation to gender reassignment.

It provides that even where a person has a GRC and is deemed to be of the reassigned sex, a person may refuse to solemnise a marriage because some religious communities treat sex as immutable."

Fieldoftheclothofgold · 27/04/2021 17:59

How about deliberately misgendering a colleague?

I suppose that would need to be tested in court. Note, though, that MF says she usually is happy to use preferred pronouns as a courtesy.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 27/04/2021 18:06

Well as MF didn’t deliberately misgender a colleague it’s a moot point.

Quite. Next!