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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Women and historic cults

25 replies

Wandawomble · 24/04/2021 09:13

I think it would be useful to have a carefully worded thread looking at cult mentality as it affects women - for instance most recently the Nxivm cult - there is a documentary about this if you’ve not seen it or heard of them - the branding of women with hot irons and the way that women were manipulated and then used to recruit and control others. www.nytimes.com/2017/10/17/nyregion/nxivm-women-branded-albany.htm

www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.rollingstone.com/culture/culture-news/nxivm-sex-cult-keith-raniere-trial-mark-vicente-834795/amp

www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.rollingstone.com/culture/culture-features/nxivm-keith-raniere-wellness-scam-sex-cult-848439/amp/

The tactics of this group followed a classic pattern. Instrumental was how women were persuaded, petted and then used to recruit others.

Throughout history we’ve seen these cults emerge and wonder how they managed to get so much power - we also tend to see them as happening “over there somewhere” ie not touching us. However recently a friend told me that her sister was part of a semi religious cult that’s quite active in America. I guess there are always these pockets of people who are actively using these tactics on various scales. The Order of the Solar Temple was killing its members in 1995 - it’s not so far away in history.

Cult tactics are deceptively simple, incredibly stupid and yet weirdly effective. When I read about them it always surprised me how anyone could fall for the outright lies or ridiculousness of the things being said to them and yet there must be a longing in the person to belong to something welcoming and bigger than them. The Manson women felt special and unique - a kind of magical high that comes with being chosen.

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Wandawomble · 24/04/2021 09:15

I noticed Hayley Attwell is Tom Cruise’s girlfriend - I’m wondering if she is having to join his gang and if on date night they watch Battlefield Earth.

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Wandawomble · 24/04/2021 09:42

www.nbcnews.com/think/opinion/cults-are-terrifying-they-re-even-worse-women-ncna862051

“This is one reason why, though women and men both suffer in the iron grip of charismatic and authoritarian cult leaders, women followers face a unique set of life-altering issues — and those unique issues often become the focus of media coverage of cult cases. Women’s sexual lives, their lives as mothers and their ability to control their own reproductive choices are all upended within cultic organizations.“

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Wandawomble · 24/04/2021 09:47

www.alexandrastein.com/warning-signs.html

Cult/Totalist Recruitment Warning Signs

Isolation : Engulfment : Fear

The group/person has the Total and Only answer. Only they have the right line, will make the revolution, solve your problems, empower you, make you loved, rich, effective, holy, etc.

Attempts to isolate you from existing close relationships (friends/family) and the outside world

Extreme, immediate and/or inappropriate friendliness or attention.

Promises of perfection if only you adhere to their program

Your “gut-feeling” tells you something is wrong. Trust this, and try to analyze it.
The group creates conditions of extreme stress, threat or fear (emotional and/or physical)

Not answering questions, or turning them back on the questioner.

Inappropriate personal boundaries

Loaded language: strange language or jargon you initially can’t understand. Canned, repetitive phrases.

A hard sell for further commitment, programs or contact. If you resist, you’re selfish, ungodly, “bourgeois”, don’t believe in yourself, etc.

Encouragement to cut ties with family or friends, unless you can recruit them.

Secrecy, inappropriate “confidentiality”.
Lack of privacy - constantly with group members, constantly busy with group activities.

Ends justifies the means. It’s OK to lie to others in the name of the Cause, God, for success, etc.

Challenging your fundamental identity: Your strengths are criticized as your weaknesses.

Once you’re in, heavy pressure to stay in.
Those who do leave are shunned. They become the enemy, or objects of pity.

No criticism allowed of the group or leader. The group/leader is always right.

Deception: what you thought you’d get on joining or attending an activity turns out to be something else.

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MayYouLiveInInterestingTimes · 24/04/2021 14:50

It sounds like a more intense form of what happens in regular organised religion tbh. I’ve always had a greater intrinsic faith in polytheistic over monotheistic faiths, and pluralism over evangelists. Non-religious organisations can go down the same route too. It’s certainly interesting to take the specific objects of social contagion away and look at the common empirical methods.

Wandawomble · 24/04/2021 15:03

I am thinking that people look for something to worship and the cult is a substitute for family and approval. Women are roped in as enlisters - to make it look safe. Certainly with the NXIVM cult there was a lot of head patting, the need to do well and prove yourself.

From this article www.straight.com/arts/vancouver-author-sarah-bermans-dont-call-it-a-cult-delves-into-how-women-came-under-spell-of?utm_source=twitter&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=hootsuite&utm_content=georgiastraight

“ But when I first met Sarah Edmondson who was a whistleblower who first came forward about the branding and other course of ethics, she didn’t want to say the c-word on camera. She was afraid that there was going to be some kind of backlash against her. And that was the first of many sort of upside-down moments for me where I was like, what’s going on here?

And then later on, I realized you can’t really talk to somebody who’s in a group like this with that language. You can’t say: “You really need to get out of that cult. That’s really cult-y.” That’s going to shut somebody down.“

And the lack of awareness that they have been brainwashed. They can’t see it’s a cult and won’t use that language - huge defence system in place.

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InvisibleDragon · 24/04/2021 15:43

There's also this thread, which has details of various dodgy cults and other weird organisations:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3848614-Controversial-networks-considered-by-some-to-be-cults-mumsnet-readers-need-to-be-aware-of

I think the "lack of awareness that they have been brainwashed. They can’t see it’s a cult and won’t use that language - huge defence system in place." is also relevant in abusive relationships. It's very difficult for someone who is being emotionally manipulated to call it abuse (whether by an individual or a cult). It can sometimes be easier to talk to someone about whether they feel happy in their current situation - and what would need to change for them to feel happy. That way you can at least gradually draw attention to the long-standing abusive interactions that have not changed and are contributing to someone feeling unhappy.

AvocadoBathroom · 24/04/2021 17:17

@InvisibleDragon

There's also this thread, which has details of various dodgy cults and other weird organisations: www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3848614-Controversial-networks-considered-by-some-to-be-cults-mumsnet-readers-need-to-be-aware-of

I think the "lack of awareness that they have been brainwashed. They can’t see it’s a cult and won’t use that language - huge defence system in place." is also relevant in abusive relationships. It's very difficult for someone who is being emotionally manipulated to call it abuse (whether by an individual or a cult). It can sometimes be easier to talk to someone about whether they feel happy in their current situation - and what would need to change for them to feel happy. That way you can at least gradually draw attention to the long-standing abusive interactions that have not changed and are contributing to someone feeling unhappy.

Yes definitely and in some aspects of the sex industry too I would imagine. A friend of mine who has left stripping after several years said for her it was like waking up from a cult - where she was simultaneously being valued for her body and devalued at the same time. She was assaulted several times on the job but had learned to shut up and disassociate from it. Once she started waking up from the bad dream as she describes it, she got told off by her boss for looking dead behind her eyes.
AvocadoBathroom · 24/04/2021 17:18

I would also say whilst men get involved in cults too obviously - they seem to have more power within them - women's bodies are used and controlled.

ArabellaScott · 24/04/2021 20:12

Cults are very common. Cult-like behaviour is a very common part of human behaviour - it can be benign at one end of the scale (group think as a form of bonding) and horribly dangerous at the other.

cultinformation.org.uk/question_what-is-a-cult.html

This site has lots of very useful information on cults, including what I think is a very perceptive description of how they operate:

'The Cult Information Centre (CIC) defines a cult as a group having all of the following five characteristics:

It uses psychological coercion to recruit, indoctrinate and retain its members
It forms an elitist totalitarian society.
Its founder leader is self-appointed, dogmatic, messianic, not accountable and has charisma.
It believes the end justifies the means in order to solicit funds and recruit people.
Its wealth does not benefit its members or society.'
ArabellaScott · 24/04/2021 20:16

This, also from the site I linked to above, is also really useful:

'By far the majority of people who are recruited into cults are in fact normal and healthy. They usually come from economically advantaged family backgrounds, have average to above average intelligence and are well educated, idealistic people, with no prior history of mental illness. Their spiritual perspectives vary greatly. Some have a strong faith and some do not.

People of all ages are influenced and many are professionals. It appears that anyone can be recruited. For rather than joining a cult they are actively recruited. No one wakes up in the morning and says "its about time I got involved in a cult" and goes out looking for one. Instead they become unwitting victims of deception and subtle techniques of psychological manipulation.

These techniques of mind control used by cults to overpower the unsuspecting are many and varied. They include food and sleep deprivation. Trance induction is common and achieved using hypnosis or prolonged rhythmical chanting. Another popular tool is bombarding members with conditional love. This love is removed whenever there is a deviation from the dictates of the leader. It is known as love bombing. Guilt and fear are also used to bring about conformity along with isolation from rational reference points, as well as a removal of privacy, so there is no time to think and reflect on the issues and activities experienced thus far. These techniques are employed against the individual in an atmosphere of intense group pressure to conform at all times to the desires of the leader.

A list of 26 cult methods of psychological coercion is as follows:

Hypnosis
Peer Pressure
Love Bombing
Rejection of Old Values
Confusing Doctrine
Metacommunication
Removal of Privacy
Time Sense Deprivation
Disinhibition
Uncompromising Rules
Verbal Abuse
Sleep Deprivation
Replacement of Relationships
Chanting
Confession
Financial Commitment
Finger Pointing
Flaunting Hierarchy
Isolation
Controlled Approval
Change of Diet
Games
No Questions
Guilt
Fear
Change of Dress Codes'

cultinformation.org.uk/article_caring-for-cult-victims.html

AvocadoBathroom · 25/04/2021 21:19

Yes, I think it's interesting the overlaps between cults and the thread about the Crucible and teenage girls, it may look different, and yet the way self-harm is marketed to girls is all about isolation and specialness.

This is interesting too:
Religeous Cult - Average age at the point of recruitment is in the 20s.
Therapy Cult - Average age at the point of recruitment is in the mid 30s

I would imagine with the internet both of those would have a younger cohort now - and of course the ideal cult would be one that you can fervently love like a new religion but one that also promises to make you feel better than before.

My 40 year old sister was in a wellness cult group that she found in her early thirties and still glazes over when she repeats the mantras of affirmations and self-blame - at one point she was recruiting all her friends into it to be guided. It was grim - all those weird terms for things and obscure language, and it cost more and more money to be in the higher echelons.

LosingMyMarblesRun · 25/04/2021 21:34

I was raised in a religious cult and much of this is very, very familiar.

A few years back I cut myself off completely from my network of "friends" because I know from years of observation that any expressions of friendship would actually be attempts to bring me back into the fold. No thanks.

ArabellaScott · 25/04/2021 21:38

That must have been really hard, Losing.

LosingMyMarblesRun · 25/04/2021 21:41

Yes, it was a huge thing to do, but I wasn't safe with them, from a psychological perspective. I couldn't depend on them for support, or true friendship. It was all about maintaining maintaining status quo.

ArabellaScott · 25/04/2021 22:25

That makes sense. It's sad how damaging these groups can be.

humansare · 26/04/2021 04:38

Anyone and everyone can be sucked into a cult. It doesn't matter how rich or poor, how clever or stupid you are, where you live, what job you do or don't do, how stable or unstable you are, what God you do or don't believe in: 100% of people are susceptible to being groomed and manipulated by cults. Nobody is immune. It just takes the wrong people at the right time and bingo... bye bye normal life.

Have you ever been to a UFO or aliens talk? Ever gone to a non-trad church? Or a spiritualist or paranormal workshop, or an informal politics group in the back room of a pub, or an NLP class, or a self-improvement meeting in the local high school, or a introduction to Buddhism lecture, or a mindfulness class or a free yoga session? Do you swing, take drugs, are you into kinky stuff? Do you like crystals, herbal medicine, or personality tests? If you've done any of those things, then you're at risk. Whoever you are, there's a cult just for you -- you just maybe haven't run into it yet.

There's loads of lists of behaviours 'cults' demonstrate, and yet, even if you learn them off by heart, you're still susceptible. Most of the time, in the early stages? You're not being 'actively' recruited you're the one making the all the effort. Initially, you're not even being groomed you're actually grooming yourself. That's why such groups are so hard to leave -- you can't admit you've done a number on yourself until something BIG happens, and even then.. well... maybe you'll be too far gone or in too deep to care.

I could bang on for years about this - it's one of my 'special interests'.

But, the question was...

'How do cults specifically affect women?' And I had to think about that.

My long-winded response is...

In many ways. And it depends on the cult. Some cults just want your money, some are fronts for international sex trafficking, some are child sexual abuse rackets, some have you begging on the streets or selling magazines, materials or courses, or they have you out recruiting other people, some perform child marriage, some practise polygamy, some are wife-swappers, some turn women into prostitutes, some cults use them as unpaid labour (modern day slavery), some women are coerced into degrading sexual practises or promiscuity, or married off to unsuitable men.

In most cults, be they religious, political, or therapy/self empowerment groups, women are generally not especially prized in their own right. They are not often allowed to be 'leaders' or 'perform ceremony'. They are 'disempowered' by their 'faith'. When women are told that they should 'keep sweet', be quiet, do as they're told, are helpmeets or property of their husbands and masters, it means women cannot question, which means their critical thinking skills wither and women become infantilized.

Women are often isolated from external sources of support: friends, family, non-cult members. Some cults don't want you to go to the doctors, or talk to 'agencies', which limits your chance of seeking assistance if things go wrong in the group. Eventually, your 'ordinary' life is replaced by the group -- job, accommodation, friends, social support, finances: all of which makes it harder to leave if you ever 'wake up'.

Combine the lack of exit support with infantilization and it's no surprise women find it hard to leave.

If you don't watch TV, read newspapers, listen to the radio, you don't know about how you can silently show a doctor you're being abused by scribbling a black blob on your palm, you don't know how to go to the chemists and ask for 'ANI'. There may be social workers or nurses or policemen affiliated to the cult, you may have spent years being told that these people are the agents of Satan. You might not have a mobile phone and even if you do, you might not have anyone left to call if you've spent too long in a cult.

Woman are often conditioned to deny reality, and not trust their own judgement. Women are also not generally allowed to 'collectivise' or form a group for themselves within the cult without the oversight of men, as their ordinary female conversations and bonding are considered gossip and sinful. This means women start 'self-censoring'. It means they don't tell each other the truth. That means they feel isolated, even within the group, and they tell themselves they need to try harder to overcome their faults. They see everyone else smiling and happy and think there's something wrong with them -- they don't understand that everyone else is in the same boat and probably feeling the same feelings, and they're too scared or controlled to ask each other the right questions.

In such cults, women often start competing for status within the group by keeping other women in their place, reporting on other women's behaviours or comments, trying to get as close to the 'guru' as possible in an attempt to get favourable or better treatment, and are often willing to do whatever it takes to maintain their position. That means, not only do women not trust each other, but 'favourite' women will abuse, coerce or deliberately manipulate lesser women within the group so they can elevate their own position within the hierarchy. The psychological effects of this on women are immensely damaging. You might expect to be abused by men, but you don't expect it from other women. As a woman, you expect women to be on your side, empathise with your situation or have your back, more than men, and when they don't, it can adversely effect your future friendships forever.

In a lot of cults, women are told by their doctrines and 'guru's' that woman as a class of beings are worth less than men, won't get full enlightenment because they're female, are duplicitous, untrustworthy, or unclean, and their only value within the group is as wives and mothers. It also means that women who do not tow the line are more harshly punished, because they're naturally 'unclean/impure/deceitful' and are at the lowest level in the hierarchy, below even the 'ordinary' males, who are below the 'inner sanctum', who are below the 'guru'. This 'correction' takes many forms -- shunning, physical beatings, verbal berating, or forcing women to perform acts, ceremonies or rituals which are, they are told, designed to 'help' them 'overcome', but which usually results in trauma, exhaustion or mental breakdown.

In some cults, women are usually encouraged to feel shame via their menses, too -- often women are told they're dirty or impure when menstruating, which further impacts on their sense of worth.

These kind of cults usually encourage women to be traditional homemakers, which prevents women from earning enough money to be independent, which means when problems arise they're less likely to leave. They also encourage women to have as many children as possible, which can impact a women's health, both physically, and also psychologically -- often women are too exhausted taking care of their children to notice the impact the cult is having on their mental health or children's lives until something dramatic happens, and when somethings dramatic does happen, women are often too worn down to raise any real objections.

In such situations, women go into 'survival mode': to prevent themselves cracking up due to the anxiety-producing cognitive dissonance they feel, they instead try to live moment to moment, they make excuses for their abusers rather than deal with a reality they do not have the skills or resources to alter, and they dig in deeper: chant more, pray more, work harder, work through it.

Sometimes women in such groups who are labelled as 'wilful' or 'non-conforming' are determined to be 'mentally ill'. There have been instances where women in cults who will not conform to the cults philosophy have been sectioned, taken to psychiatric facilities or 'in-house' 'treatment' facilities run by the cult, heavily medicated and/or later abandoned or told to leave the group they're in.
Sometimes women, and their children are told by the 'guru' they are to relocate to another country, made to join another group, made to divorce or are married off to a new husband without their consent.

A lot of cults 'marry within the group', which causes custody issues for women if and when they decide to leave they legally cannot take their children with them due to their husbands' legal rights, or they are labelled unfit mothers or their past decisions are made known to the courts so that they lose custody of their children especially drug use, mental illness, or 'promiscuity' which, while not actually illegal, due to the patriarchal nature of most state systems, can mean a woman is painted as a 'bad mother'. often women would like to make a clean break: they often fear for their lives and/or sanity, but are forced by the courts to share access or facilitate parental contact, which means they cannot escape the cult. Parental alienation often occurs, and the cult conditions the children to see their mother as a source of evil/sin, which makes life even harder for these mothers who may then return to the cult rather than have their children hate them.

Not all cults are so obviously paternalistic: some cults 'allow' women to lead, but there's usually a bloke at the top who they have to 'keep sweet'. There's a few 'goddess' type cults, or 'female empowerment' type therapy cults, but even these 'female-focused' groups usually result in women being financially or sexually exploited and/or treated like slaves.

So, even if you don't end up poisoned in a Jonestown scenario, or end up setting yourself on fire to set yourself free, ala Solar Temple, even if all that happens is you shave your head and waste your life staring at the wall and waiting for the sky pixies to grant you great boons, cults will potentially wreck your life.

LosingMyMarblesRun · 26/04/2021 07:26

Yes, yes and yes.

Sophoclesthefox · 26/04/2021 07:45

Amazing post, humansare Flowers

Also Flowers to losingmymarblesrun

Cults are one of my hobby topics, too. There are a couple of podcasts about them I’ve recently got into. “Guru”, looks inside a wellness cult that ended up with three people dying in a ritual in a sweat lodge.

“Uncover: Escaping Nxivm” is about the Nxivm cult, a supposed sel improvement organisation that is actually more of a sex trafficking cult.

Both fascinating and horrible.

LosingMyMarblesRun · 26/04/2021 07:53

It's actually strangely comforting to read how susceptible humans are to cults. I was born into it, raised devout most of my life, isolated through the process of being unable to connect with people outside the cult, being encouraged to be a sahm and have many children. The infantalisation comments really hit home. I felt that deeply after I left, this sense of not being an actual adult who can function in the real world.

But I'm doing OK now! Career, holding my own, learning DIY, all sorts. Rebuilding your life from the ground up in your 40s is a huge task, but the alternative is not an options, so I kept at it.

NecessaryScene1 · 26/04/2021 08:07

Its founder leader is self-appointed, dogmatic, messianic, not accountable and has charisma.

Now this is the thing I'm most interested in looking at. The other parts are consistent patterns, but what about this.

Are there historic instances of having leader groups, where large numbers of people are "self-appointed, dogmatic, messianic and not accountable", whether or not they have charisma?

If you start with a leader, you can see how the rest of the machinery grows around them. And there are lots of instances.

I want to know how many instances there are without the leader?

Religions do maintain themselves after their initial founder, but they retain actual structure. New priests/leaders generally have to go through some sort of process with the existing ones. You can trace the lineage of the organisation from the founder. (I believe the Christian "laying on of hands" is basically that principle).

But instances where people just declare themselves part of the leader-class of the existing cult, and no central authority controlling access? How stable can that be? I want to learn from any historical instances.

LosingMyMarblesRun · 26/04/2021 08:12

That's an interesting point. I think if you look at splinter cults off main ones, you might find information. The one that comes to mind is fundie Mormons living as polygamous families in the wilderness, the father/husband becomes the self appointed leader of his own cult family.

Wandawomble · 27/04/2021 00:26

@humansare what a fantastic post!

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Wandawomble · 27/04/2021 00:30

Another thing I’ve noticed is that cults often have mantras - statements that get said over and over until you are expected to believe it. Like if they can control the language they can control the pain they are advocating and the thoughts. The words “love” and “family” gets used a lot. “We love you, we are your new family now.”

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Wandawomble · 27/04/2021 00:31

“Your family don’t understand you, only we understand you.”

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oldwomanwhoruns · 27/04/2021 07:51

Hasn't the internet now somehow circumvented the need for cults to have a messianic leader? I don't think that Q-anon had a leader?

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