Single sex sessions, Harrogate Turkish baths

[Itwasjustresting]

Nudity will be banned at single sex sessions in order to be more inclusive.

“A separate report said while there has been an increase in mixed-sex sessions over the last year, there was "concern" around access for those of varying gender categories including transgender, gender dysphoria and transsexual.

"This is due to the potential access to single sex sessions by someone of technically the opposite sex, especially to those sessions where swimwear is optional," the report said.

Now, I may have read this wrong, but if someone “technically” of the opposite sex has accessed a single-sex session, surely it has stopped being single-sex?

www.harrogateadvertiser.co.uk/news/politics/council/harrogate-turkish-baths-set-to-u-turn-on-move-to-mixed-sex-sessions-only-3204075

Wasnt there a big consultation around Harrogate Turkish baths last year around them considering getting rid of single sex sessions?

They seem very confused. Single sex sessions are only open to people of that sex. Are they suggesting that a TW might try and access a woman’s session and we wouldn’t notice if they were wearing a swimming costume??

It sounds like the usual “oh god please don’t come after us & let’s hope no one notices” fudge most organisations go in for in an attempt to appease

It’s exactly that, a fudge. I lived there, and the Turkish baths are a tourist highlight so I suspect that they do not want to be challenged by visitors, rather than locals.

This article gives me a bit more hope;

''Historic Turkish Baths in North Yorkshire look set to u-turn on plans to move to mixed-sex sessions only, after an outcry from bathers.

The 124-year-old spa and health club – which is run by Harrogate Borough Council – last year revealed proposals to switch to a timetable of mixed-sex sessions only and also introduce a nudity ban in a move it said would better reflect “equality and balance”.

But bathers have came out in strong force against the move with 92% of respondents to a newly-published survey saying they feel people would stop visiting the venue if it went ahead.

Baths manager Chris Mason has now said that given the “overwhelming” response, they are proposing a revised timetable with an even number of male and female sessions instead of the current schedule or mixed only.''
www.examinerlive.co.uk/news/local-news/turkish-baths-u-turn-mixed-20409134

Why were there be a ban if it's single sex? That's pretty rubbish.

It still seems unclear whether the 'single sex' sessions are actually single sex - I'd guess probably not. They're probably all potentially mixed sex but some are 'single gender'.

I don't believe there's any legal basis for 'single gender' services is there?

I heard this on the news and was puzzled .
So are nude single sex sessions being abandoned so that by wearing swim wear they can allow people to go in by their preferred’gender’?

That sucks.

I’m not sure I understand...

They are having singles sex sessions because that’s what the public want BUT nudity will be banned so that any sex can attend those single sex sessions?!

What is the point?!

@Erkrie

Why were there be a ban if it's single sex? That's pretty rubbish.

There’s some further detail in the council paper, as well as “fulfilling duties under the equality act” the nudity ban will apparently allow for staff of the opposite sex to be working, making rotas easier.

Report is here democracy.harrogate.gov.uk/documents/s10144/Single%20sex%20session%20report%20final.pdf

Farcical. And depressing.

So they ran a consultation and when it overwhelmingly went against what they wanted to do, they decided to ignore it

I was interested that they were switching from 3 sessions for women and 1 for men a week, to 2 each.

Because usually women are far more interested in single sex stuff than men.

Bit further down 'The new proposals comes after the baths ended male-only sessions in 2011 because of "financial reasons" before they were reintroduced five years later.'

So it seems that the male only sessions weren't as popular. But theyve changed it to two each for equality. Even if the demand isn't in line with that change.

So anyway in the end they've said they're not doing mixed sex as neither men nor women wanted it. But they are going to say swimwear must be worn anyway due to gender stuff.

My read of that is

They know if the place is full of naked women it might attract some clients who are there for that reason. And have realised that these days they can't just say no.

Also even if there weren't any weirdos thinking yay, males with trans identities (who can present however they feel comfortable obviously) might cause discomfort in a situation where clothes are optional.

While they could probably argue that saying it's single sex full stop by exemption under eqa. I think they would get a huge amount of trouble protests etc.

It's also council run so again that makes that just not going to happen in current climate.

@Thelnebriati

My permanent setting.

'The proposed timetable changes are more inclusive as they will provide 2
weekly single sex sessions for males and females rather than the current
timetable which provides 3 single sex sessions for females and 1 single sex
session for males.'

Do they understand what inclusive even means?

I wonder if there's another reason for wanting to have some male staff at the women's sessions as well as the stated reasons

I'm getting the impression that nudity and single sex arrangements were maybe becoming untenable. Both for staff and people attending in good faith. Having been exposed to the occasional naked perv in the 'changing village' at my local pool I unfortunately can imagine exactly what might be happening.

Yeah, that would be my guess too - they aren't able to push the point so they are trying to avoid the worst problems.

They might have upped the number of male only sessions because demand has changed again, or perhaps to make more options for times.

@Beamur

I'm getting the impression that nudity and single sex arrangements were maybe becoming untenable. Both for staff and people attending in good faith. Having been exposed to the occasional naked perv in the 'changing village' at my local pool I unfortunately can imagine exactly what might be happening.

That’s one of the most depressing things about the current situation and one of the things tha makes it absolutely clear that this is a men’s rights movement. Women are losing things they value because men are determined to invade and are being encouraged to do so by the increasing voices of those insisting that some men are women and must have the right to do so.

@Beamur

I'm getting the impression that nudity and single sex arrangements were maybe becoming untenable. Both for staff and people attending in good faith. Having been exposed to the occasional naked perv in the 'changing village' at my local pool I unfortunately can imagine exactly what might be happening.

Perhaps I’m naive but isn’t that generally more of an issue with all-male sessions than all-female (the cunty type) sessions?

There’s certainly sone hints in the press discussions that the all-male sessions were stopped after “inappropriate behaviour”.

I understood the article to mean they will be single sex sessions for male and female people separately (so sex not gender) after people said they wanted single sex spaces but that they are planning to go ahead with the proposal for everyone to wear swimwear.
Have I misunderstood?

Perhaps I’m naive but isn’t that generally more of an issue with all-male sessions than all-female (the cunty type) sessions?

There’s certainly sone hints in the press discussions that the all-male sessions were stopped after “inappropriate behaviour”.

This would come down to the unfortunate insistence that women’s liberation is feminism and that feminism is about equality.

If men’s behaviour patterns mean that certain activities are not possible for men, then equality says women can’t have them either.

But I think it’s unlikely this isn’t, in part, related to the issue of men insisting they are women and being very unpleasant when entry to women’s sessions is refused.

I am very confused. If they are using 'sex' then surely they know this is not the same as gender? They really are trying to be all things without realising there is a fundamental conflict between rights. Maybe they do realise and maybe they just hope we're all that stupid

This is an ideal case to illustrate how Equality Act single sex exceptions clause should be used but providers are unable/unwilling to use it.

A female single sex bathing session where women are naked can exclude all male people (including those who have a GRC) whether staff or customers.

Male people are not discriminated against as they have the option to attend either the mixed sex or single male sex sessions at the baths.

Naomi Cunningham (Barrister), Oral evidence: Reform of the Gender Recognition Act, HC 884
Wednesday 10 February 2021

"Just a tiny point on language. Can we try to talk about the exceptions” in the Equality Act, not the “exemptions”, because “exemptions” makes them sound like something special that has to be applied for, and they are not.

The general rule is that you cannot discriminate in various circumstances and there are exceptions to those rules, and those exceptions always apply in the circumstances where they apply. You do not have to make a special application for an exemption from the rule; they are just situations where the rule does not apply."

committees.parliament.uk/oralevidence/1693/default/