Rape suspects can choose to self-identify as female - Times Scotland

[Igneococcus]

Yousaf claims they would need a full GRC but:
"Detective Superintendent Fil Capaldi said: “The sex/gender identification of individuals who come into contact with the police will be based on how they present or how they self- declare, which is consistent with the values of the organisation."
Does that mean the "values of the organisation" potentially trump the justice secretary and the Scottish parliament?

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/aba95fce-9ef0-11eb-a908-ec96e110073e?shareToken=828b6f29f363f02863b00aa4b523a1c0

But the debate on MN seems to centre mainly on the public toilets debate, however trivial you say it might be

It's doesn't in the slightest although many of our visitors like to derail topics frequently by bringing everything back to focus on toilets alone.

This thread for example is about sex offenders being recorded as female and the consequences of that.

And it seems to be based on the implication that trans women are a threat to women, when I don't believe that to be true.

MOJ statistics unfortunately show that transwomen ,at least in prisons in England and Wales, are more likely to be sex offenders than other male prisoners and other studies confirm that transwomen have the same pattern of criminality as other males. So they are not perhaps more of a threat but just the same threat to women as any other males.

But the debate on MN seems to centre mainly on the public toilets debate, however trivial you say it might be.

You have come onto a thread about male rapists being able to self ID as female, and have derailed the thread to talk about toilets. Then complain that there are too many discussions focused on toilets.

Genuinely baffled

I know. Threads here do get mired on that. But it helps to remember that toilets are ALWAYS brough up by 2 kinds of people

Posters as you seem to be - genuinely asking because it seems odd

TRAs - not NOT necessarily transpeople at al, just activists and people who want to stir up stuff, often taking closely edited snippets back to Twitter to crow over them.

I'll try...

But the debate on MN seems to centre mainly on the public toilets debate, however trivial you say it might be. And it seems to be based on the implication that trans women are a threat to women, when I don't believe that to be true. Sadly your belief is not born out by research and real life stories. I think someone has already quoted research that shows that women face 8 or 9 times the risk of violence in mixed sex toilets, changing rooms etc. That was, if I remember, based on reports of violence, real life occurences.

And you say 'transwomen' and most GC posters here would like to make the point that we don't think transwomen are dangerous to women per se but that many men do go to a lot of trouble to access women, children etc. There is nothing to stop ANY man from declaring himself female and taking advantage of the current 'acceptance without question' mantra.

Karen White
Katie Dolatowski

These are two transwomen who show how that can and does happen here in the UK. There are others but these two are quite recent and have enough written about them, laws being changed because of them to be easily found and read.

Men are a threat to women, including those who pretend to want to be women (and I'm not sure how many of these there are, but I suspect there are few of them). Yep! Which is why I asked you how many women were OK as collateral damage. And why my own answer these days is "no!"

Transwomen are male and there is no evidence to show that they are less of a risk to women than any other male. We can’t tell which men are out to hurt us and which are not so in order to protect women, we keep men out of our spaces when we are vulnerable eg in changing rooms, refuges or prisons

And you can see @Collaborate just how odd your posts here seem to many other posters. Which is why you may feel a little beleagured,.

As @PronounssheRa said You have come onto a thread about male rapists being able to self ID as female, and have derailed the thread to talk about toilets. Something I tried to explain in my last posts. It is often done by people who come here to try and get Mumnet closed down, specific posters banned, threads cliosed etc. Yes, that does happen, every day.

You are following a pattern we have all seen before and many won't give you much benefit of the doubt because it happens so very, very often.

But occasionally someone posts and asks and actually listens, asks more and more questions and, like me a few years ago, decides that they have been wrong and can see how that came about.

This is why so many here keep on posting and explaining. For that quite rare chance and to give those who read and do not post more information too.

Collaborate can you please elaborate on why you don't believe transwomen are a threat to women? For example, have you seen any studies that back up your view?

I just ask because I recall that both the Tavistock Clinic and the British Psychological Society stated a few years that transitioning does not decrease a male person's likelihood of violence, so I wondered if you perhaps had some new information.

@heathspeedwell Isn't the problem with those who haven't got a GRC?

I understand the justifiable concern of women in physical sports that former men aren't competing on a level playing field (I haven't seen the science though it all seems entirely a natural concern to have), and the wholly unacceptable policy (does it exist?) of allowing male sex offenders to transition in prison and get moved to a women's prison.

Allow me, I am stil here

Isn't the problem with those who haven't got a GRC? No, not really. The issue is that some organisations and individuals got ahead of the law and have been acting as though Self ID is an actual law here in the UK.

I understand the justifiable concern of women in physical sports that former men aren't competing on a level playing field (I haven't seen the science though it all seems entirely a natural concern to have) Yes, I used to do the science, there is a ot of it about. You don't really need it though. Think of a man, any man, a small, short, older, less fit man, any man. Would you feel confident you could ecape form him if he chose to do you harm?

and the wholly unacceptable policy (does it exist?) of allowing male sex offenders to transition in prison and get moved to a women's prison. Yes, it is policy. There are quite a few threads about it, I referred you to one such person earlier.

metro.co.uk/2021/03/02/governments-trans-women-prison-policy-to-be-challenged-at-the-high-court-14173451/

Please take this as it is meant: you seem to be wholly uninformed as to the real life and recent issues around Self ID and the dismantling of womens rights.

If you were to follow up some of the suggestions here, read a few more threads, see what is happening daily, in real life across the UK, you might see things differently.

My apologies @Collaborate I just assumed your sex is female. Apologies if that is incorrect!

Collaborate

"and the wholly unacceptable policy (does it exist?) of allowing male sex offenders to transition in prison and get moved to a women's prison"

It is happening in the UK and the US.

www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2018/oct/11/transgender-prisoner-who-sexually-assaulted-inmates-jailed-for-life

thecritic.co.uk/keep-men-out-of-womens-prisons/

www.wsj.com/articles/male-inmates-in-womens-prisons-11622474215

You have come onto a thread about male rapists being able to self ID as female, and have derailed the thread to talk about toilets. Then complain that there are too many discussions focused on toilets.

This. How this is supposed to be good faith posting is beyond me.

@WarOnWomen

If rapists are identifying as women, won't there come a time in the future when they can't be rapists because they will be seen as women and as women, they would be charged with sexual assault? That's the logical conclusion, right?

I don't reckon so, as rape is penis in vagina, so regardless of what the perp looks like or identifies as if they have a penis it must be rape, surely?

Collaborate there have been cases of male people with a GRC raping women, and male people who have already committed rape being given a GRC, so I'm a bit confused about your view.

What makes you think that male people who transition are less likely to be a threat to women?

mobile.twitter.com/mbmpolicy/status/1401858091315085313

Policy group Murray Blackburn Mackenzie have been doing work on getting proper data on male sex offenders who are recorded as women. Way we can help available on their website.

Thank you to those of you who have signed our petition since it went live yesterday morning. It has already gathered 4k signatures. It will stay open until 5 July.

There is a report on it in today's Scotsman newspaper:

www.scotsman.com/news/politics/petition-launched-for-sex-of-those-charged-with-rape-to-be-recorded-accurately-3264308

And we have just added to our tweet thread with details of other actions those based in Scotland can take in relation to the petition:

mobile.twitter.com/mbmpolicy/status/1402245588670988290

(We had not appreciated that our thread specifically about the petition would be moved out of FWR hence the reason for posting an update here.)

Lisa, Kath and Lucy

You are most welcome. I have shared it with a few friends too

Returning to this thread to post some of the coverage we have had for the petition since it launched last week. Once again, thank you to everyone who has signed to date. It remains open until 5 July and can be signed by those outside Scotland too.

There was an opinion piece by Lucy and an accompanying news piece in The Times on Wednesday.

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/7cd19cc0-c876-11eb-b255-82dcc5007185?shareToken=c23b4b2cbaa958725347a0b211f7e21d&fbclid=IwAR0OkqsXViLo-vWBBU6yCy4Jmzq89By5CtmGDn-HUVkzAHin-BkzIHDUYgI

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/110093be-c8a0-11eb-b6f5-fed739e7c1ca?shareToken=92b58eaf68262f189848645280ea061d&fbclid=IwAR2PRFAgN97hBY1iiXAiOGGesXZNOwgLnckzZhxg-Y1P7ZilDJrZ1ebg2pQ

It was mentioned in a column by Susan Dalgety in The Scotsman yesterday:

www.scotsman.com/news/opinion/columnists/keir-starmer-must-show-courage-and-protect-women-and-their-hard-fought-rights-susan-dalgety-3269707

And Susan Smith from For Women Scotland spoke about it on Talk Radio yesterday. You can listen to the clip here:

forwomen.scot/wp-content/uploads/2021/06/Talk-Radio-12June2021.mp3?fbclid=IwAR3PWChjVUvIAy_t9NiCTaeDAlGLkWzj5CD8-EhsS5DeBb8JSoXYcdTfdcs

Really impressed by Susan Smith's performance on Talk Radio. Calm , articulate and measured argument. Well done.

It's funny how everyone complains and marches against institutional racism in the Police, but few are bothered by institutional sexism. Which is what this is.

We need a feminist symbol like 'taking the knee' against racism.