Survivors of sexual violence and access to single sex support (possible trigger warning)

[SapphosRock]

For reasons I won’t go into I’ve been looking into local organisations that offer help and support to female survivors of sexual violence and abuse.

I discovered my local area has a specialist service for trans and non binary survivors (excellent). It also has a women only service which I naively assumed would be single sex, particularly as the trans service exists.

Can you guess which service these screen shots are from? It appears TW have the choice of using either service but women only have the choice to use a service for ‘self-identified women’ with trans women actively encouraged to volunteer for the women's service.

Is this really what women want for themselves their mothers, daughters, sisters and friends? The exceptions in the Equality Act would make a single sex service completely legitimate in this case so why isn't it?

I mentioned this briefly to a TW acquaintance of mine who said trans women have been accessing women’s services for 15 years with no issue and I was being trans exclusionary.

Does anyone know if women have been surveyed specifically on this issue? I really think they need to be.

Is this really what women want for themselves their mothers, daughters, sisters and friends?

No. No, it's not.

But for some reason women wanting male-free spaces is unacceptable.

At least they are upfront about being a group for self identifying women. I had to leave my freedom programme (for women who have been victims of abuse) because one of the group members was a tranwomen who reminded me of my ex H. I was told specifically that it was an all female group but this person was someone who had very obviously not had any surgery or hormones and looked quite male. When I started the group I thought why is there a man here before I realised that she was transgender.

She made some comments that I thought were quite inappropriate and I don’t think that a biological woman would have gone unchallenged and dominated all the discussions even the one about the impact of DV on children when she did not have children.

I did not want to say anything so I just left the group and a lot of other ladies did but not everyone was able to leave as some ladies had to complete the programme for social services or the family court.

You're not being trans exclusionary, you're not expecting that TW don't access women's services or have access to care. Just that female people have the same freedom of choice and respect for their choice to access female only provision where they need it, and are not required to put their own needs second to validating someone born male in a role where the client's best interests should be paramount.

Some women cannot in all situations without exception respond to a male person as if they were a woman regardless of how that male person identifies. This is the reality. The male person's needs can't always be the primary consideration.

I should add that of course the lady in our group should be able to have access to support but not at the expense of everyone else in the group.

It was at a different area to the one in your OP SapphosRock.

Oh that sounds awful Cherry I'm sorry you experienced that . You don't hear of women joining trans services and taking the opportunity to center themselves so I'm not sure why it's acceptable the other way around.

Cherrytree that should not have happened. I'm so sorry. I hope you were able to access other support.

Tbh if I really needed a place like this I'd do my best to stay with a friend because this doesn't sound safe and welcoming to me. Doesn't anyone care about how WE get triggered any more?
I'm angry at how my existence gets diminished for the sake of someone else's delusion. I'm angry that misogyny has become so ingrained that this takeover is silent.

The problem with the “well no one has complained” argument is that it completely ignores the power imbalance providing service provider and service user/client

I used to work on quality & evaluation with charities and they would always smugly tell me that everyone loved their service and no one ever complained. My first question was - is there an alternative to your service? To which the answer 99% of the time was no so effectively it was a choice between that service or none. Disadvantaged or traumatised ppl are unlikely to complain about a service of it all is the only help available to them

I had to leave my freedom programme (for women who have been victims of abuse) because one of the group members was a tranwomen who reminded me of my ex H. I was told specifically that it was an all female group but this person was someone who had very obviously not had any surgery or hormones and looked quite male

I don't think that should have happened. I'm sure the Freedom Programme has previously clarified that they are women only?

Biscuitsanddoombar Exactly. It's also putting all the onus on the vulnerable and traumatised woman to advocate for herself.

Do people really think all woman who have experienced sexual violence would have the confidence to request a different group or counsellor? As Cherry pointed out most women would simply leave the service and not receive the support they deserve.

the 'no one has complained' argument isn't an argument.

How many people are likely to make a complaint when they are traumatised?

How many will complain when they know it might open them up to abuse?

How many will complain when they are looking for solace, not more stress?

To properly assess the impact services should carry out very sensitively worded, and carefully considered, anonymised surveys of users. It should also seek responses from people who self-excluded. I don't know how possible it would be to actually do this.

I used to work on quality & evaluation with charities and they would always smugly tell me that everyone loved their service and no one ever complained. My first question was - is there an alternative to your service? To which the answer 99% of the time was no so effectively it was a choice between that service or none. Disadvantaged or traumatised ppl are unlikely to complain about a service of it all is the only help available to them

There are MNetters who a year or so back posted about having held a meeting with other women who were refuge users with refuge staff and managers about their distress and difficulties at being refused single sex provision. They were treated with disinterest and disrespect during the meeting and several women were in tears by the end. Following the meeting the managers stated that no complaints or issues had ever been raised by women- which further distressed the women.

Not only were their concerns not heard, they were not even logged, and the managers were in flat denial that the meeting had ever happened. What are women supposed to do in these circumstances?

I'm afraid I no longer believe 'there are no issues'.

@Cherrytreeblossoms

At least they are upfront about being a group for self identifying women. I had to leave my freedom programme (for women who have been victims of abuse) because one of the group members was a tranwomen who reminded me of my ex H. I was told specifically that it was an all female group but this person was someone who had very obviously not had any surgery or hormones and looked quite male. When I started the group I thought why is there a man here before I realised that she was transgender.

She made some comments that I thought were quite inappropriate and I don’t think that a biological woman would have gone unchallenged and dominated all the discussions even the one about the impact of DV on children when she did not have children.

I did not want to say anything so I just left the group and a lot of other ladies did but not everyone was able to leave as some ladies had to complete the programme for social services or the family court.

I'm sorry you were forced out.

Freedom Programme are very clear that women are human beings who are female and recognising male patterns of dominating and controlling behaviour. It would be worth (if you can face it) letting them know of these issues as they may be able to intervene with those facilitating in order to prevent similar issues for women in the future and/or to signpost to an alternative provider.

freedomprogramme.co.uk/

I know now that the freedom programme take a strong stance on this as I was able to complete online and I saw their Twitter bio ( women don’t have penises). I think that if I had complained to the freedom programme they would have taken me seriously but I felt very vulnerable at the time. I had no boundaries and even though I felt very anxious I tried to think of that person as a woman even though they didn’t look or act like one. I don’t think the organisation which talked about how abuse can happen to people of any gender would take me seriously at all.

I mentioned this briefly to a TW acquaintance of mine who said trans women have been accessing women’s services for 15 years with no issue and I was being trans exclusionary.

No issue for that person presumably. I bet not a single woman was asked when the assessment was made.

The situation you describe is distressing OP. I think the women’s service should be open to all women, potentially including transmen, should they feel the need for a single sex space and assuming their appearance isn’t so masculinised that traumatised women would be retraumatised by their presence.

It’s depressing that women can’t even have services for themselves, even where specialised services for men who claim they are women exist.

Cherrytree

Your post really brings it home.

Women whose boundaries have been violated are at these places and groups because they are trying to learn to listen to their bodies and their own feelings and regain their own values about what they want, can cope with, manage the 'triggers' that other groups talk so freely about.

It is appalling that those who should know this the best and be supporting women the most include those who would encourage or flat out pressure these women to ignore their feelings, put aside their own needs, and predicate what boundaries they are allowed around the needs of another group member or worse, a member of staff. And there is no way to cover up or look away from that the massive majority of these women have been traumatised by a male abuser, and are now being asked as females to prioritise the emotional needs and wellbeing of another male born person over themselves.

Why on earth would anyone who works in the field and genuinely knows and understands and cares about their clients be putting them in this position? It has to be questioned as to exactly whose needs are being met and how, and where the supervision is and why it is not of sufficient quality to pick up on these massive problems in practice.

This is so depressing.

There should be spaces for all to access safe support.

But the statistics on Dv, sexual assault and female murder demonstrates that women need protected space from men. This is not about offending or excluding anyone but about safety, physical safety and aiming for psychological safety.

I am going to watch the women’s place thing because I do think that a lot of it comes down to funding and that they will lose their funding if they are single sex.

There may have been transwomen access services 15 years ago but there were much fewer around and those that were there were much more likely to have had gender reassignment. You did not get some one who has made no change to themselves other than their name. When you have had to run and hide from your partner it is quite alarming to think that the only thing he would need to do to access your all female support group is to tell them they now wanted to be called Fiona.