TMI: Genderqueer 11-year-olds can’t handle too much info about sterilizing treatments

[InvisibleDragon]

There's a new post from 4th Wave Now about a presentation from Diane Ehrensaft about ' Issues for Transgender and Nonbinary Youth'

4thwavenow.com/2021/04/13/tmi-genderqueer-11-year-olds-cant-handle-too-much-info-about-sterilizing-treatments-but-do-get-on-with-those-treatments/

The take home message is that it is a "developmental stretch" for trans children who are 8 or 9 to make decisions about sex and babies, and could create emotional stress.

However, it's really important to proceed with putting these children onto Puberty Blockers to "ward off an unwanted puberty that they’ve been thinking and worrying about for years" even though this decision is going to "take away options for fertility for most."

That's quite a position to take ...

Appalling. Anyone who can even think about sterilising children of that age should frankly not be allowed anywhere near them. It’s such a violation of ‘first do no harm’.

Perhaps someone changed the Hippocratic Oath while we were sleeping?

Diane Ehrensaft is the absolute loon who thinks a toddler girl pulling out hair clips is trying to non-verbally show you she’s transgender.

I don’t see how we can expect children to understand puberty blockers will result in infertility when some well known advocates who have reached adulthood still don’t seem to understand it either.

However, it's really important to proceed with putting these children onto Puberty Blockers to "ward off an unwanted puberty that they’ve been thinking and worrying about for years" even though this decision is going to "take away options for fertility for most."

So it's ok to encourage them to worry and fret about future "unwanted puberty" when they're too young but not to think about growing up and having a family? And some of these are "genderqueer" children so not even fully "born in the wrong body"? Ie just perfectly average children with a range of interests who don't conform to sexist ideas of how they should be? And the acknowledgment that they are in effect sterilising them? Wow.

4th Wave Now
'Gender-affirmative therapist: Baby who hates barrettes = trans boy; questioning sterilization of 11-year olds same as denying cancer treatment'
Posted on September 29, 2016
(extract)

"A well known subscriber to the “gender affirmative” approach to trans-identified children is Diane Ehrensaft, PhD., a clinical and developmental psychologist. Dr. Ehrensaft, author of The Gender Creative Child, plays a powerful role in the burgeoning field of pediatric transgenderism. She is director and chief psychologist for the University of California-San Francisco children’s hospital gender clinic, and is also an associate professor of pediatrics at UCSF. She sits on the Board of Directors of Gender Spectrum, a San Francisco Bay area organization which is heavily involved in matters pertaining to trans-identified children and youth.

In February, Dr. Ehrensaft, along with other pediatric transition specialists, including Joel Baum, MS (senior director of professional development and family services at Gender Spectrum), presented at a conference and continuing education event in Santa Cruz, California. The all-day event, attended by over 400 people, was recorded and video is available here.

The 5.5-hour video is well worth watching in its entirety for anyone interested in the current state of “gender affirmative” therapy. This post will touch on only a few highlights from the conference (continues)

During the audience Q&A, a man asks how one might tell if a pre-verbal one or two-year-old is transgender. Ehrensaft’s answer, delivered with a knowing and confident smile

[Preverbal children] are very action oriented. This is where mirroring is really important. And listening to actions. So let me give you an example.

I have a colleague who is transgender. There is a video of him as a toddler–he was assigned female at birth–tearing barrettes out of then-her hair. And throwing them on the ground. And sobbing. That’s a gender message.

www.dailymotion.com/video/x7kqndw (continues)

4thwavenow.com/2016/09/29/gender-affirmative-therapist-baby-who-hates-barrettes-trans-boy-questioning-sterilization-of-11-year-olds-same-as-denying-cancer-treatment/

Shorter video here R0 for your records. Also describes a toddler boy twirling a onesie as a sign of being transgender.

m.youtube.com/watch?v=M7KBZeRC1RI

Regardless of her previously expressed ideas, the fact that none of these advocates can clarify the consent issue for puberty blockers is the reason why the judges in the Bell/Mrs A vs Tavistock had to set out the criteria for them. A child must be able to understand:

i) the immediate consequences of the treatment in physical and psychological terms;
(ii) the fact that the vast majority of patients taking puberty blocking drugs proceed to taking cross-sex hormones and are, therefore, a pathway to much greater medical interventions;
(iii) the relationship between taking cross-sex hormones and subsequent surgery, with the implications of such surgery;
(iv) the fact that cross-sex hormones may well lead to a loss of fertility;
(v) the impact of cross-sex hormones on sexual function;
(vi) the impact that taking this step on this treatment pathway may have on future and life-long relationships;
(vii) the unknown physical consequences of taking puberty blocking drugs; and
(viii) the fact that the evidence base for this treatment is as yet highly uncertain

The end of that slide?!!
"Are they game?"
Who on earth asks if a child is 'game' when it comes to discussing disruptions to their sexual development? 'Capable', perhaps or 'mature enough to understand' but game?
It might just be awkward phrasing but that's messed up.

Also describes a toddler boy twirling a onesie as a sign of being transgender.

It is quite incredible to watch Diane Ehrensaft claim that a baby boy who unpops his babygro is signalling a 'gender message' that he has a female identity and prefers to wear a dress rather than considering he might have a hot bottom or a wish to wriggle.

Ehrensaft is of course blinkered by her US-centric world view ignoring the many parts of the world where men do not wear trousers.

NotBadConsidering Many thanks for the short clip. It should be required viewing.

I've seen that conference video before. Absolutely bonkers and sickening.

From the article:

To sum up the 4thWaveNow reaction to the main message imparted in this Zoom “training”: Ehrensaft’s use of (accurate) developmental psychology to justify the impossibility of obtaining informed consent from minors, with only the emotional blackmail of suicidality as a rationale, is nothing short of mind-blowing.

Yup. And Twitter is full of people who just cannot grasp what is being done to these children.

I walked behind a baby in a park the other day who peeled off both socks before the parent carrying them noticed, and dropped them (into puddles) whilst chuckling to themself. Does that mean they identify as an amputee and need their feet chopped off? Perhaps Diane could advise.

So let me get this right:

• Children are too young to understand about fertility and sex, so they should not worry about those things

• They should still be helped to make a decision which prevents them ever being able to develop their sexuality or fertility

How in the world is this not seen as the crazyass dangerous bs it is?

I'm glad this has been linked here. I was going to do it myself. So many WTF moments reading about this training session. I don't think this bit has been mentioned yet.

Ehrensaft wraps up this part of the Zoom session with an anecdote she says she heard from another gender clinician, Scott Leibowitz, MD:

“I want to mention one intervention I learned from Scott Leibowitz. Which is, in making these decisions with youth about fertility and their future fertility, once they’ve made the decision, he invites them to write a letter to themselves at age 30, and write their present-age self to their 30-year-old self explaining to them what process they went through to make the decision they did that may have implications for future fertility at age 30 or 25.:

What does Ehrensaft (and Leibowitz, assuming she has represented his views accurately) think this letter-writing exercise will accomplish “after [the child has already] made the decision” that they will never reproduce? Is this meant to serve as an apology of sorts to the regretful adult? That 30-year-old future self, with a 30-year-old brain and all its more nuanced and experience-tempered understanding of the world, its fully developed frontal lobes, will see this letter by his or her child-self and feel — what? Does any 30-year-old look upon the writings or thoughts of their 12-year-old self and see wisdom? They will likely “forgive” their 12-year-old self, but …

Deciding 11 year olds are "genderqueer" is idiotic in the first place.

Wasn't it ( and happy to be corrected here) stated a few months back somewhere when it came to preserving the fertility of trans children that with regards to egg preservation that they have better success rates if the eggs are fertilised.

So if that's an option that's apparently open to teenagers befire treatment then how can they not have it explained to them or not need to know if they simultaneously have to pick a father fir the child?

None of the thought processes are compatible with eachother are they.

As I said I only vaguely remember reading it on here so if it's I'm correct please report and delete.

That's correct, Skully. Egg freezing success rates are woeful. It's really only a last-ditch kind of thing, e.g. for women about to have fertility-destroying cancer treatment for gynae cancers undergo egg retrieval, who have no other option. I was astounded when I found out people were touting putting healthy children into a situation of relying on it.

@highame

Perhaps someone changed the Hippocratic Oath while we were sleeping?

She's not a medical doctor. She's a psychologist.

That's correct,Skully. Egg freezing success rates are woeful. It's really only a last-ditch kind of thing, e.g. for women about to have fertility-destroying cancer treatment for gynae cancers undergo egg retrieval, who have no other option. I wasastoundedwhen I found out people were touting putting healthy children into a situation of relying on it

Thank you

This whole thing is extremely reminiscent of lot of the accounts we have seen or heard from parents om Ted talks or TV or whatever.

Where the children are simultaneously incredibly articulate at age 2/3 and where as many of us spend our days retrieving toddlers from.dog baskets and reminding to say please, these toddlers are asking when God will correct his mistake or when can they get am operation to get a vagina.

Yet as young adults telling the story they come across extremely immature and self absorbed. One assumes that's possibly because of the medications they have been placed on as we know that causes a drop in IQ. But it's very hard ti reconcile these very young articulate children able to voice quite a descriptive account if how they feel and what they understand with how they come across when older.

How do they seemingly understand so much as very young children but are unaware and surprised at what we feel should be obvious as adults..

I want to mention one intervention I learned from Scott Leibowitz. Which is, in making these decisions with youth about fertility and their future fertility, once they’ve made the decision, he invites them to write a letter to themselves at age 30, and write their present-age self to their 30-year-old self explaining to them what process they went through to make the decision they did that may have implications for future fertility at age 30 or 25.:

Adults who at 25 or 30+ years old are trying to reconcile the harms done to them as children will rightly not view well professionals who coerced them to write such letters.
Its a serious deriliction of Duty of Care.

Interesting points there about egg freezing. www.vice.com/en/article/ep448j/more-companies-are-covering-the-cost-of-egg-freezing-who-is-it-really-for-v27n2 This is the first article I found confirming what I thought I'd read recently, namely that some US employers (e.g. Facebook and Apple) are including the cost of egg freezing in their health insurance/employee benefits package. Skimming through, it confirms what I was wondering about that - women are feeling pressured as a result to put off having children. That's particularly worrying if when they finally reach a point in their career/life when they feel they can start IVF it turns out that the frozen eggs aren't good enough.