School Transgender Policy

[WhoWants2Know]

I got an email this morning with my eldest's school's new transgender policy. Complete with "assigned at birth", students choosing their changing rooms, and all of it will be taught in PSHE. The school wants to achieve a "Rainbow Flag Award".

It's not that I would want trans kids to be bullied. I feel that they are presenting an idea as a fact, and removing the choice from children who don't want to change with a opposite-bodied child.

It was presented as a done deal. Is this just every school now? Is there any point in responding?

And not just their feelings. I can easily imagine daft teenagers of both sexes daring each other to go into the wrong changing rooms and tell any teacher who tries to take action that they are trans, whether or not they are. Have the people drawing up these instructions ever met any actual teenagers?

@Igmum

And not just their feelings. I can easily imagine daft teenagers of both sexes daring each other to go into the wrong changing rooms and tell any teacher who tries to take action that they are trans, whether or not they are. Have the people drawing up these instructions ever met any actual teenagers?

Honestly - that is such a spurious argument. No one has suggested you just let any teenage boy say "Hey Miss, I feel like a girl today" and they just walk into the girl's changing rooms.

We're talking about someone who has changed their name, has asked for female pronouns to be used, is wearing the girl's uniform, is living socially as a girl and is possibly also under the care of a gender specialist.

I mean this is the kind of argument American fundamentalist alt-right types make.

Does noone else remember sniggering teen boys talking about what they would do if they were able to go in the girls' changing room? It was a joke used in pretty much every 90s- late 00s comedy ever. Whoever gave this the green light is dim.

I would save all the helpful information you have received on here OP. Now the 👮🚔 have arrived this could go kaput at any moment.

I got an email this morning with my eldest's school's new transgender policy. Complete with "assigned at birth", students choosing their changing rooms, and all of it will be taught in PSHE.

Recent thread has many resources and accurate information informed by law and Safeguarding principles:

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4210375-they-can-request-another-space

@WhoWants2Know

The policy did explicitly say "trans boys can change in the boys changing room because they are boys" and vice versa.

I can’t see any issues there, no Siree.

Useful article by ExcelPope (a school governor) identifying how Safeguarding should work:
(extract)
"I spend a lot of time designing policies and procedures, and what I tell people is this:- Imagine a worst-case scenario occurs. There is an official investigation, where you’re asked “What did you do to prevent this happening?”. Now imagine what answer you’d like to be able to give to that question in that scenario – that’s the starting point for writing your policies.

In that vein, here’s a scenario.

You are the head-teacher of a secondary school, with pupils aged 11-18. A police officer arrives at the school and asks to speak to you. They have found a video on a porn site which shows the changing-rooms at your school, including a number of girls, who appear to be aged 13-15, in various states of undress. It has clearly been filmed with a concealed camera-phone.

The video has been taken down, but not before it had tens of thousands of views. The account that posted it has been traced to a student at the school who identifies themselves as trans and was, in accordance with the guidance, allowed to use the female changing rooms.

The police need a female member of staff to view the video with them, to identify the 20 or 30 teenage girls who appear in it, so that they and their parents can be informed that they have been victims of voyeurism.

What did you do to prevent this happening?" (continues)

There are around 2.2 million males aged 13-18 in the UK, no matter how much experience you have with children, with trans people, with trans-children, you cannot absolutely assert that none of them will abuse, or attempt to abuse, the guidance given in a manner that infringes of the rights of other students.

This isn’t about demonising all trans people, or suggesting that any given one of them would act in such a manner. This is about the risk presented by the guidance itself, whether that risk can be mitigated in a manner which is proportional to the potential seriousness of the outcome and whether the risk is, in part or in whole, outweighed by the risks of not implementing the guidance." (continues)

excelpope.wordpress.com/2019/02/28/the-unaskable-question/

Actually, I think you'll find once something is school policy it needs to be applied to all pupils equally, as schools cannot be seen to show favouritism. Therefore if self Id is allowed for a genuine trans girl, it has to be equally applied to Billy the troublemaker.

Besides that, I don't care how lovely a trans girl is, schools separate by sex to cover their own asses, avoid safeguarding nightmares and provide dignity and privacy to the children.
Fight it op. Bring it to the governors they'll definitely be some staff on your side.

Ultimately the school governors (rather than the SLT) have responsibility for the welfare of all the children and staff in a school.

@R0wantrees

Badass Badger award for you. Excellent post!

🏆

🦡🌈🤍

I'm not in Scotland, but in a rural area in England. There are few Muslim students who would be impacted within the school, but a fair proportion of both Romany and Irish travellers (settled and mobile) within the community. It's not easy to keep students from that background engaged with education at the best of times, and this won't help. I haven't spoken to the families that I know yet, but I think they will remove their daughters from the school.

I understand that a child may change their uniform and name and pronouns, but that won't necessarily change the way their opposite sex classmates feel about being nude in their presence.

Well this has brought back some delightful memories of school PE lesssons:

-freezing, draughty, cobwebby sports pavillion
-freezing, sputtering showers
-having to wear revolting gym knickers and netball skirt
-having to get naked in front of other people in order to change in and out of hideous PE kit
-having to run in circles and attempt to catch/throw/hit various sized balls hurled at me, whilst being screamed at by a PE teacher

The only thing that could possibly have improved this experience would have been changing/showering with the boys in my year. Just how rubbish do those in power plan to make life for teenage girls at the moment?

But what is a genuine trans girl? As opposed to a not genuine one? I am confounded by these , as the whole thing hinges on deception or, in the case of adults , a legal fiction.

Shizuku

"We're talking about someone who has changed their name, has asked for female pronouns to be used, is wearing the girl's uniform, is living socially as a girl and is possibly also under the care of a gender specialist."

And who is a fully intact male, who should never be allowed to change with young females.
Anyone who cannot see what is wrong with a young, fully intact male being allowed to change with young females should be investigated.
Have you heard of Jessica Yaniv?

No one has suggested you just let any teenage boy say "Hey Miss, I feel like a girl today" and they just walk into the girl's changing rooms.

This is demonstrably false. Lots of people are saying that.

If a trans girl is not allowed to be believed by saying "I feel like a girl today", I'd be interested to hear which words in which order would be believed and acted on.
Because they will become the words that are used.

Suggesting that trans people change their appearance, name, or self-referring language so gatekeepers "believe" them (as though it's somehow possible for someone to say they are trans and not be trans?? ) is really dodgy territory and not something I advocate for at all.

I understand that a child may change their uniform and name and pronouns, but that won't necessarily change the way their opposite sex classmates feel about being nude in their presence.

The school are in in breach of their statuatory responsibilities.
Contact Safe School Alliance who can assist. If not immediately resolved it is likely a matter for OFSTED.

@Thecatonthemat

But what is a genuine trans girl? As opposed to a not genuine one? I am confounded by these , as the whole thing hinges on deception or, in the case of adults , a legal fiction.

If you say you are trans, you are trans. As far as I can tell it's the act of stating it that conveys the status. The alternative is that there is some sort of objective and definable criteria. No-one can agree what these should be.

There is the criteria for gender dysphoria (which is problematic in itself as it relies massively on sex stereotypes) but most activists argue that gender dysphoria should not be necessary to be trans.

Imagine a worst-case scenario occurs. There is an official investigation, where you’re asked “What did you do to prevent this happening?”. Now imagine what answer you’d like to be able to give to that question in that scenario – that’s the starting point for writing your policies.

I think of this often!

I find it amazing that with everything that is going on about sexual abuse in Universities at the moment that these policies are even considered as reasonable

And how many schools don’t have libraries? And this is how money is being spent?

I find it amazing that with everything that is going on about sexual abuse in Universities at the moment that these policies are even considered as reasonable

Also the sexual abuse of girls and female teaching staff in schools.

And not just their feelings. I can easily imagine daft teenagers of both sexes daring each other to go into the wrong changing rooms and tell any teacher who tries to take action that they are trans, whether or not they are. Have the people drawing up these instructions ever met any actual teenagers

That has happened a few times at my dd's school in the girls changing room. The loudest girls deal with it and throw them out, (they won't put up with it) but it's more problematic for the quieter girls, like my DD, who are too scared to say a word. Obviously over the last year they haven't been using the changing rooms because of covid, but I'm sure the problem won't go away as we get back to normal again.

The Rainbow Flag award is delivered by the Kite Trust, but on their website I don't see the packs that they are using.

And what about for example like Phillip Bunce, but some days Pippa Bunce person - so presumably the boy teenager may only feel like a girl on a Tuesday (which happens to be PE day).

And noone can ask the obvious question. How did we get here???