Ohio bans abortions of foetuses with Down Syndrome

[MoltenLasagne]

"An Ohio law prohibiting doctors from performing abortions of foetuses diagnosed with Down’s syndrome has been upheld by a US court, setting up a possible showdown at the Supreme Court."

"The law raises the prospect of 18-month prison sentences for doctors who perform abortions while aware that a Down’s syndrome diagnosis, or the possibility of one, is influencing the decision. Violators could also lose their medical licence. The legislation does not criminalise the actions of pregnant women, however."

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/9bb4fd66-9cc1-11eb-a908-ec96e110073e?shareToken=fbd9f218127c022d416e5d6bb8ff880a

Very concerning developments in Ohio. It strikes me that so much of the conversation is about punishing women for choosing if they can cope with raising a child with Down Syndrome, rather than increasing support for families who have children with Down Syndrome.

Yes, and early onset dementia.

I am absolutely pro choice though.

If you support limits on abortion you are not absolutely pro-choice.

My much beloved brother in law has Down's and is a wonderful, valued member of our family who I couldn't imagine life without. I personally would never terminate for a DS diagnosis. But that doesn't make it right to force a woman to continue a pregnancy she doesn't want, no matter what the reason is.

Thats a fair point Soubriquet. Also worth considering it might not be the parents but the siblings who are the primary carers for an adult with DS. Which I'm sure many siblings would be fine with, but its not a choice they get to make.

I hate this discussion. My heart is dead against termination, it's something I don't think I could do, regardless of circumstances.

My head knows that it absolutely has to be freely available for individual women to make that choice.

I understand why some would see this as a good thing. It isn't.

I never understand why people think that forcing people who are contemplating abortion for what they think is a 'bad' reason to parent that child against their will is likely to be a good or desirable thing. If a woman thinks she is unlikely to cope as a mother to a child with downs syndrome then I'm inclined to trust her on that.

The worst part is that they try and make it about the child. A child with additional needs being brought into the world where its needs can't be adequately met is not in the interests of the child.

@Soubriquet

I think some people forget children with DS grow into adults with DS.

It’s ok if they are high functioning but not every one is

Some need constant around the clock care. It’s one of the reasons I have said that if I had a high chance of a DS pregnancy, I would with high regret, terminate.

This is exactly how i feltbwhen pregnant. I had worked in care, and knowing i may have to hand my child / adult to someone else to care for my df scared the hell out of me.

DS was used in Poland, in a different way, in the campaign to destroy abortion rights last summer. Poland used to have among the most liberal rights in Europe - even in "Cold War" times, people would come to Poland from elsewhere in Europe - even from outside the "Warsaw Pact" countries - for abortions. The law changed in 1994 to radically restrict rights, but abortions were still allowed on the grounds of rape or incest or if the child would not survive birth, or would be condemned to death at birth. As you understand, these categories were very private and personal to women and their families.

Then the questions came about the "category" of people who would be allowed to choose, and arseholes used DS to erode the category of vulnerable children, and then to remove it outright. It was mostly for some who would be in pain during their pregnancy before a stillbirth or birth of a child who would die within several hours - but it could also include some severe cases of DS, which should not be included for unexplained reasons.

As the world knows, the Polish Government couldn't get their law through the Sejm, so they botched the Supreme Court to pass law banning abortion in Poland. Poles took to the streets, and are still protesting. This is a global movement of arseholes. Do what you can to resist them, please!

@AssassinatedBeauty is right - it's male lawmakers, telling young women what to do with their bodies. And this IS only young women we are talking about, not old crones (such as myself). I get a really nasty feeling about this dynamic.

Perhaps we wimmin should have a say in what men do with their bodies? Perhaps we could, ooh... ban feminisation surgery and neo vaginas perhaps?

Fair's fair.

It's not just the USA.

www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=&ved=2ahUKEwjMqqzU7f3vAhXuhf0HHbCmAX4QFjAAegQIAxAD&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.bbc.co.uk%2Fnews%2Fuk-northern-ireland-politics-56041850&usg=AOvVaw3a9B_2JqdX8eRcCnZC-EIx

This is what we expected from Trump packing the courts with conservative judges. If challenged, this law may still go through. I got some heat for championing Biden, but the right hates women even more.

God, I really wish we could get the ERA done!

@peachgreen

I am absolutely pro choice though.

If you support limits on abortion you are not absolutely pro-choice.

My much beloved brother in law has Down's and is a wonderful, valued member of our family who I couldn't imagine life without. I personally would never terminate for a DS diagnosis. But that doesn't make it right to force a woman to continue a pregnancy she doesn't want, no matter what the reason is.

That fact is that the vast majority of people in the population are neither absolutely pro-choice, accepting abortions for any reason up until the birth, or pro-life, accepting no terminations for any reason, even something like ectopic pregnancy.

If those are the limits, you will find few people meet your definitions.

I agree @smokedduck. But if you're not absolutely pro-choice (ie you have limits) then don't claim to be absolutely pro-choice. Especially if what you actually want is to reduce the limits.

they could have violent mood swings

Soubriquet, I think your understanding of adults with DS is overly negative as it's very rare for any of them to be violent, it's much more likely that a 'normal' child will grow up to have "violent mood swings"

I'm not defending Ohio, I'm just defending those with DS

@peachgreen being pro choice does not mean you have to support abortion at any stage of pregnancy. If the baby is full term it's very much a baby.

Not being able to abort a full term baby is not the same as forcing a woman to have a baby she doesn't want.

@SnowAllSpring

So you have your tests for Down's at 11/12 weeks. And if the test is positive or likely positive you are then not allowed to terminate? But if the test is neg/likely neg you can? Makes absolutely no sense. Fucking woman-hating child-hating fundamentalist wankers.

What??!

Downs syndrome is used as a weapon in the anti abortion movement.

I'd like to know what provision Ohio makes for support of downs syndrome children and adults. I suspect it is less than states that don't try this shit. Do they provide life-long health care? are there programs for adults? special education provisions?

Given the current make-up of the Supreme Court in the US, the race is on to find a case that they will take up that will overturn Roe v Wade. John Roberts will dodge and weave as best he can but they are coming for it.

Personally, at this point, I'd almost welcome it. the majority of americans support the womans right to chose. Just as the majority of americans actually believe something needs to be done about gun laws.

of course as someone living here with children living here that raises a whole other spectre - what happens to a society when its institutions are enforcing values that the majority disagree with?

[quote bump2677]@peachgreen being pro choice does not mean you have to support abortion at any stage of pregnancy. If the baby is full term it's very much a baby.

Not being able to abort a full term baby is not the same as forcing a woman to have a baby she doesn't want. [/quote]
I agree with you.

I am horrified and amazed that the law here doesn’t have more people up in arms regarding termination of a ds baby right up until full term. It’s wrong. Absolutely awful.

I have a family member with DS who can’t speak or walk, has never been toilet trained at age 60, and struggles to even watch tv because she doesn’t understand what’s happening. She’s in a care home and seems to spend most of her time staring at the wall or sleeping.

DS is very much a spectrum and I find it problematic that people point to high functioning individuals as typical, saying they merely have a “simple learning disability”. DS can be very severe and its impossible to know before birth how severely someone will be affected. This law will place a very heavy burden on a family who will probably not have the state support we have in the UK. As pp have said, the wealthy will simply leave the state to get an abortion.