Having a wobble

[Ravenclawsome]

I have been what I call "RadFem lite" - that is GC which huge helping of awareness of harms of porn, prostitution etc but not quite all the way on other aspects yet (may still get there - for a number of years.
Radicalised by Mumsnet 😂

But I find myself having frequent wobbles.

I have colleagues who I regard as highly intelligent who consider criticism, no matter how legitimate, to be transphobia.

And now there's the hoo-ha over the Alba women's conference, Stonewall and the ILGA documents.

I've read the relevant section and even if it's not what they meant, it's one possible interpretation and ambiguity is not a good thing in policy making IMO.

But colleague think this is calling gay people paedophiles.

It's not, but at the same time people seem to have forgotten the support for PIE in the past.

I just find the ideology to be sexist and homophobic and object to the extremists insisting I align with their beliefs over reality.

Am I really a bigot?

What do you think?

No you're not OP. You are a sane adult looking with scepticism at a movement attempting to gaslight the population into believing myths and beliefs as facts.
It's an exceptionally dangerous time because as soon as society enshrines beliefs in law, then we lose the ability to trust in facts, science and truth.

And the good thing about having a wobble is that it shows insight and thought. Unlike those who ignore things like child safeguarding, women's rights and ethical behaviour, using threats, violence and intimidation instead.

Do you REALLY think you are a bigot? What is this question really about?

I'm having a wobble, I'm questioning my judgment, I'm wondering if I'm going mad.

When even people I consider to be good and intelligent people are going along with it it makes me wonder if I'm wrong and reevaluate everything.

I don't think I'm a bigot. But then I thought minidiscs would be around for ages.

I've long lost any patience with anyone who can not see the issues with this ideology.

There are a couple of threads on here today. One is about pregnant people. Another is called something like ‘just when you thought you’d seen it all’.

If you would like to see someone being robustly challenged on gender ideology, and their defence, I recommend you check those threads out. When you see both sides of the argument, it may help you with any wobbles you may be having.

The trans ideology requires instant, unquestioning acceptance, obedience and submission. The trans ideology considers any divergence from it to be bigotry.

The gender critical position encourages questioning, debate, and robust, evidence-backed rebuttals of unsubstantiated claims. The gender critical position recognises conflicts of interests and diversity of beliefs, and does not seek to force any belief system upon anybody.

What do you think - are you a bigot?

I know what you mean OP and there was a thread on a similar topic recently, about questioning ourselves sometimes. I agree that it means you are actually testing what you think with rational thought processes and logic, and are open to your ideas being disproved.

But so many things make me come back to the same stance when I think them through. I'm still waiting for someone to explain exactly how a man just is a woman, why it's not the same as white people claiming to be black, and how we're meant to tell the difference between a "real" trans person and an opportunist predator, or a vulnerable teen who might later change their mind.

If these arguments or explanations were there I would listen, but they are not there, so far. This ideology is being pushed through by claiming victimhood, making threats, piggybacking on the original gay rights movement, and reframing any criticism as a bigoted attack.

I genuinely think most of the intelligent people who support it really just think they are being nice and supportive to a marginalised, oppressed group of people who have a condition that is just like being gay. They haven't thought it through or questioned it because it wouldn't occur to them that there could be anything worrying about an oppressed, persecuted group. So of course they will think that someone who is raising concerns must be some kind of old-fashioned bigot - not least because that's a very strong narrative coming from the ideology itself.

Either that or they are saying what they have to say to keep their jobs, friends, etc.

You don't have to nail your colours to the mast, you can still keep thinking, reasoning, questioning and assessing. That is not bigoted.

Who is making the link between homosexuality and paedophilia? Them or you?

That’s your answer as to who is homophobic.

@Tanith

Who is making the link between homosexuality and paedophilia? Them or you?

That’s your answer as to who is homophobic.

This line from an ILGA document.

It may not have been the intent to say age of consent should be lowered, but it is IMO one possible interpretation.

And if feminists are pointing out that possible interpretation then that interpretation will have been noted by those with less honest intent as something to potentially be exploited.

But apparently pointing this out is calling gay people paedophiles.

I've been reading the outrage on Twitter and it's the very definition of gaslighting.

You're having a wobble because you're constantly being told that you're a nasty bigot who shouldn't believer her own lying eyes and ears.

Honesty from that side would be saying "We didn't see it that way, and can see why you might read it otherwise and will immediately clarify". Nah, easier to shout bigot.

When people I consider to be good and intelligent people are going along with it it makes me wonder if I am wrong

I think of this as them having different beliefs to mine. It doesn't always feel comfortable between us. I still think they are basically good people, but it doesn't make me change my mind.

Thinking things through, learning and re-evaluating are good. I hope I never stop doing that.

I share this as it might be connected to your wobble OP, it might not, but I wouldn't give it much time...

It's a supposed 'take down' of the concerns raised by WHRC over the lowering for consent text in the ILGA doc.

It is labelled as a 'conspiracy' but the truth is that with all we know from these boards, there is a distinct and real danger for children due to the erosion of safeguarding and the attempted shift in language.

transsafety.network/posts/alba-whrc-conspiracy/

Anyway, I'm reminded of some wise words I read a while ago which goes something like this, I paraphrase:

Is it really possible for a bunch of left-leaning women to suddenly wake up one day having become raging bigots?

The answer is no.

I admit that I too had some wobbles near the beginning, the whole thing sounds so mad you wonder what you've missed and I think it's right to question your own thinking so you can be confident in your position as you have really thought about something. If anything I am seeing a lack of critical thinking and just repetition and no argument to support a claim made because it's not genuinely held, it's just mantras (and occasional 'junk science').

Have a read and a think. It's not just you.

Worrying that being gender critical makes you a bigot is like asking yourself, am I a narcissist or a sociopath? The fact that you even ask the question proves that you aren't. It's the ones who just know they're virtuous, (or fabulous or exceptional - whatever BS narcissists tell themselves) that have the real issues.

@DialSquare

I've long lost any patience with anyone who can not see the issues with this ideology.

Me too. The only benefit of getting older - less patience, more life experience, and an old hand at dealing with toddlers.

Its good that you question yourself. Think. Check. Read. Don't follow any ideology or dogma blindly. Listen to all sides and voices and views, understand as much as you can of all of them, form your own independent opinion and then check it, often.

And then notice in passing how only one side of this debate ever does this.

@EdgeOfACoin

There are a couple of threads on here today. One is about pregnant people. Another is called something like ‘just when you thought you’d seen it all’.

If you would like to see someone being robustly challenged on gender ideology, and their defence, I recommend you check those threads out. When you see both sides of the argument, it may help you with any wobbles you may be having.

I recommend the Dr Hayton interview thread too. They’re all quite illuminating.

I think it's okay to agree with some rad fem concepts and not others. It's also okay to support trans rights in some instances and not others.

For me there is a big difference between a trans woman wanting to use a public toilet and wanting to stay in a women's refuge.

@SapphosRock

I think it's okay to agree with some rad fem concepts and not others. It's also okay to support trans rights in some instances and not others.

For me there is a big difference between a trans woman wanting to use a public toilet and wanting to stay in a women's refuge.

See I don't agree with them using toilets - because they are indistinguishable from predatory men and preclude orthodox religious women are forced out.

I recommend the Dr Hayton interview thread too. They’re all quite illuminating.

Thank you. I'd checked out of that one. But it's just got absolutely transcendent.

@NecessaryScene1

I recommend the Dr Hayton interview thread too. They’re all quite illuminating.

Thank you. I'd checked out of that one. But it's just got absolutely transcendent.

There's another brilliant post from Talking recently posted on that thread.

@CrazyNeighbour

My question to Stonewall would be “given that gay people have already been used as a cover by paedophiles via PIE, why won’t you make sure there is open water between you and individuals whose hard drives wouldn’t survive police scrutiny”

I'm lost? What people do Stonewall support who have hard drives that wouldn't survive police scrutiny?