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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Advice

47 replies

MizzleEyed · 08/04/2021 00:11

My neice came out as trans 6 months ago. She is autistic which I think has quite a lot to do with it.

The difficulty is what to tell my kids. They are 5 and 7 and love their cousin. Dd7 is fairly gender non conforming and has always had a tendency to copy DN. She has even used the phrase 'DN likes this and she's a girl' when she was teased by a friend for liking 'boy things'.
How do I tell them without upsetting DN too much, confusing my kids completely or worse making them feel that they can't like whatever they want to or that maybe that means they are boys too. We haven't seen DN for a while obviously but looks like that may change soon and I don't know how to prepare them.

OP posts:
MizzleEyed · 08/04/2021 11:01

Yes, I have lot of sympathy for DN and feel absolutely terrible for her but also my kids absolutely come first even if that means they don't see DN anymore or it is hurtful for DN. Oddly I don't think she has changed her pronouns yet despite the hormones, even her parents still seem to use he and she a bit interchangeably at the moment. I guess that will alter at some point.
I don't think my kids theory of mind is quite strong enough to understand that other people might hold false beliefs and that we are just pretending to go along with it to be supportive. BlackWaveComing, that approach might work thanks, I'll consider that.
I am not that poster skyliner and you can confirm that with MNHQ if you like. I also did not read that thread but it is so sad that we have someone policing whether our language is appropriate or not whilst trying to work out more important issues about our actual children's wellbeing and security.

OP posts:
MizzleEyed · 08/04/2021 11:08

GNCQ I think that is a kind approach I could use when they are quite a lot older but they are too young to understand that. I do have a lot of sympathy for DN but have to put my kids first.

OP posts:
toffeebutterpopcorn · 08/04/2021 11:16

Whatever you decide - as long as the family understand that your children will get the pronouns wrong, it’s inevitable.

I’d have a word first and remind them to ‘be kind’ with the children as they will be a bit confused and get muddled with names and pronouns.

BlackeyedSusan · 08/04/2021 11:19

if dn is autistic, she may have more difficulty in thinking of things from other peoples point of views and also be younger in emotional age, I think the rough calculation is 2/3chronological age. (so about 14 in some aspects, and older in others. ) as a pp has pointed out NT people do not reach neurological maturity til 25, seems to be later for autistic people. This may help in thinking about how dn feels, and give some understanding of any reactions she may have. And help you think about how to help your children.

Cwenthryth · 08/04/2021 12:08

Joodyblue being a parent, even being female, is not a requirement of participating on MN. I’ve been here probably around 15 years on and off and still yet to procreate, is that ok with you? I agree with GCNQ that your reference to “sexual boundaries” being a concern relating to young girls spending time with a transman relative is a little odd, and dare I say it, actually sounds a little genuinely transphobic, as if you may be assuming sexual predation due to trans status - what ‘sexual boundaries’ do you imagine this 20yo transman might transgress with their nieces, with all parents present? If you actually meant ‘confusing impressionable children wrt definitions and understanding of biological sex’, which I think maybe you did, I’m sorry your language was unclear and it does come across as somewhat offensive to me as well. And I’m someone who gets called TERF all the bloody time by the wokerati.

OP, with the age gap, are your daughters realistically likely to spend much time with your DN anyway? I have younger cousins around that age gap and didn’t really know them at all as they grew up and I was busy being an obnoxious youth. Now they are obnoxious youths and I’m slightly grown up we have reconnected though and I’m more of a cool aunt figure for them.

CrazyNeighbour · 08/04/2021 12:21

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

JoodyBlue · 08/04/2021 12:38

@Cwenthryth yes I meant confusion relating to understanding sex. Thanks for clarifying. I know that non parents use Mumsnet. I was pointing out that the name of the board is indicative of primary focus being concerned with mums and parenting kids, rather than discussing how to convey a decision that adults take to 7 year olds. I may not have phrased it 100% clearly. You obviously did get my gist.

ANewCreation · 08/04/2021 12:57

BlackWaveComing's advice seems excellent - sound and really age appropriate.

The difference between sharing that you are T rather than LGB to a child is that T insists on rewriting everyone's history. It's not 'this is the type of person I happen to fancy' - the answer to which generally from a child is a shrug of the shoulders and 'whatever' because sexual attraction isn't really a thing for them yet.

Rather, in its current iteration, it's 'You thought I was this one thing but you were wrong, I am not. Now you all need to agree with me that I was this new thing all along.'

Activists might like us to think that the response to the T should also be a shrug and a 'whatever' too. Yet while children have a lot of magical thinking at that age and so might instinctively do that, still, as parents, and particularly parents of girls, we can see that, heading down the track, there are big issues - especially with regard to girls' boundaries and consent - where it really does matter ultimately what sex people are.

This would be far more obvious if the scenario was a nephew rather than a niece with a trans identity and your girls were being asked to consider a male as being just like them.

The other thing to consider is your 'debrief' from the meeting because there will be a certain amount of treading on eggshells while there, which probably will be exhausting for all.

Politeness on the visit would be to try to remember the new name and preferred pronouns as indicated by DN, along with 'all our other manners'.

On the journey home I would revert as a family to the previous name and sex based pronouns and continue to use them in your own home because that gives your girls permission to speak freely and explore their own feelings in the real world.

Compelled speech is not kindness and it doesn't have to extend to my car. You, for now, are the keeper of reality for your little children. Good luck!

ANewCreation · 08/04/2021 14:11

medium.com/@katieja/young-children-reality-sex-and-gender-3421f4f165f

You may well have seen this, OP, but for those who have not, it's a good insight into how young children develop their thinking around sex and gender.

GNCQ · 08/04/2021 16:38

MizzleEyed
What do your DN parents understand about females taking testosterone?
Are they aware of the health issues that come with it such as increased risk of cancer and probable need for a hysterectomy?

AnyOldPrion · 08/04/2021 16:55

I’d be worried about DD7 and social contagion. Also given the rapidity with which teens seem to be given cross-sex hormones, I’d be wondering whether detransition might follow.

My inclination might be to hold off for a while until the situation is more stable, but then again, perhaps this is what life is like at the moment and you can’t protect your children from everything.

The problem is that we are at the height of what seems to be a socially contageous situation with high risk consequences. Sorry you have been put in this situation by the medical profession.

MizzleEyed · 08/04/2021 18:33

I do have some concerns about the social contagion element. There are very clearly some issues that DD7 has copied her cousin who has previously been a good gender non conforming role model for her. It now feels like DN is the complete opposite of a good role model on gender which is such a shame. They have both been through a phase where they would refer to themselves as 'brothers' as I'm sure maybe many kids do at times. I remember myself wanting to be a boy for a brief time aged about 5 (I was jealous of being able to wee standing!) The last thing I want is for them to start talking about their trans cousin at school and someone to put 2 and 2 together and come out with 6.

I think DNs parents are trying to support and certainly were pretty firm they thought we were being uneducated and bigoted when we expressed the mildest concern. I'm pretty sure I see a bit of hidden anguish in their forced cheeriness however.
DN is a nice young person. Quite black and white in thinking and quite naive. My hunch is overuse of internet support groups has not helped. She always had great patience with DDs which is why they have had such a good relationship despite the age gap.

OP posts:
StillWeRise · 08/04/2021 18:55

@ANewCreation

medium.com/****@katieja****/young-children-reality-sex-and-gender-3421f4f165f

You may well have seen this, OP, but for those who have not, it's a good insight into how young children develop their thinking around sex and gender.

that link doesn't exist- can you find it? sounds useful
ANewCreation · 09/04/2021 03:03

www.transgendertrend.com/young-children/

Hopefully this will work - Katie Alcock's piece, once on Medium, now on Transgender Trend.

AnyOldPrion · 09/04/2021 04:58

Interesting article, ANewCreation.

Around the 1990s everyone started getting squeamish about the word “sex” and started using “gender” as a euphemism.

Interested to see that anyone involved in this would still suggest there was squeamishness and it was a euphemism. Those were the excuse we were given, but I no longer believe this change was a coincidentall accident.

I was also struck by the fact that the return to enforcing gender stereotypes in children has occurred at the same time more, or even most, children have been put in nurseries from a young age. I was very lucky with my nursery and later my childminder (who didn’t bat an eyelid at my son, whose favourite dress up was a tutu) but to my amazement, my sister’s daughter quickly became a full-on pink girly-girl after starting nursery. Perhaps it was her natural personality, but when we send our very young children to spend huge chunks of their lives with other people, we are leaving their very early experiences in the hands of other people, who may not share our values at all.

Apologies if this is a derail, OP. It’s just interesting to read how natural processes and understandings can be subverted when we start with the position that children are not children, but effectively a smaller version of adults with thought processes that are essentially adult.

StillWeRise · 09/04/2021 20:36

@ANewCreation

www.transgendertrend.com/young-children/

Hopefully this will work - Katie Alcock's piece, once on Medium, now on Transgender Trend.

thanks! I wondered if it was that piece
Shizuku · 09/04/2021 20:47

@MizzleEyed

Thanks. I certainly can't lie to my kids and they are my priority. I also agree that kids are very black and white. From what family members have said I'm pretty sure DD7 will notice as DNs voice has started to break already. I am.just dreading them saying DN you sound like a man and the reply being 'well I am'. Or worse, look DN I've copied your hairstyle as girls can have short hair too Confused I used to.post occasionally on this board and others but have not for a while. I am so glad I had read about trans issues here however. At least I had started to be very clear with the kids from a very early age that vulvas eggs and reproduction are what make you girls and thats the only thing that makes you girls so everything else is open to them in terms of toys and dress. I am sorry, I feel I am drip feeding a bit. So the other worries are my work could be at risk if they knew what my stance is and family decide to publicise it all on social media. I am.also wondering if I should delay contact with DN for as long as possible until they are a bit older or whether that would just make it worse.
"I am.also wondering if I should delay contact with DN for as long as possible until they are a bit older or whether that would just make it worse."

So, the family rejection is already starting for her.

GNCQ · 09/04/2021 23:08

So, the family rejection is already starting for her

Usual hyperbole.

People aren't allowed to work through things that directly affect them, in their own way and at their own pace, are they.

Anything other than immediate 100% affirmation is "rejection".

IDontOnlyLikeJazzFunk · 09/04/2021 23:41

So, the family rejection is already starting for her.

How did you get that from what OP said? This is not 'family rejection', this the OP considering the best way forward, considering her DN's feelings as well as what is best for her DC. Her DCs are very young to have such complex issues introduced to them and it will do no one any good to have a family reunion made difficult by tension among the adults worrying about using the wrong pronouns and how the kids will react.

I'm not sure if you have kids Shiz but if you do, you may understand that especially with the smaller children it is almost impossible to dictate their language without generating all sorts of questions as they try and get to grips with this new information. Some children may display no interest, some children will ask a thousand questions.

OP, if you are worried about how it will go, my instinct would be try meeting up without your DCs in the first instance. If there is a way for you to go meet up with DN/DSis etc and see how they are and how you find the atmosphere and general situation.

You may then have a better feel for whether it will work for your DCs to get together now or wait a while until the time feels right.

BreatheAndFocus · 10/04/2021 08:58

If I was in any doubt, I would delay contact if I was in a similar situation. That doesn’t mean rejecting DN - and I would make it demonstrably clear I wasn’t - but my priorities would be my own DC.

If DN was ready and able to process an explanation of this, I’d give it.

I think the fears about social contagion are valid here, with the added information about the effect DN has had previously on her younger cousins, and it would be a big concern for me - particularly due to the age of the children.

CrazyNeighbour · 10/04/2021 19:03

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Italiangreyhound · 11/04/2021 19:17

MizzleEyed this is tough for everyone. Can I ask how you get on with dn's mum (dad)? Who is the mum to you, if you can say without outing her/them? Is she your sis or SIL or your brother's wife or your dh's sis or SIL?

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