Would this have happened had the European Commission President been a man?

[JellySlice]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-56668347

Erdogan's protocol team did not ensure two chairs were prepared next to Erdogan's for the two senior EU people meeting with him. And neither Erdogan nor Michel saw fit to request a third chair for the female visitor, Ursula von der Leyen. There was somewhere for her to sit: a sofa away from the two men, where she was dwarfed by the huge sofa. Even if Erdogan was not being deliberately offensive, surely Michel should have refused to sit until von der Leyen was provided with a chair of equal status?

No it wouldn't have happened if she'd been a man. Very telling that they both felt entitled to take the two chairs without a second thought for her.

How extraordinarily rude. Whether it was because she's a woman, who can say. But surely basic courtesy would dictate that the host would offer his seat and remain standing while a chair was fetched for him?

I agree with errol

And no it wouldn’t have happened if she had been a man

Erdogan plays power games. Which is why Michel should have stepped up.

Disgraceful. I expect it from Erdogan, but Michel should have known better. Very poor.

Hard for Michel perhaps - not his turf, not his staff to command, and it wouldn't have been good if he'd offered von der Leyen the second seat because she was a woman. I suppose he should have seen the layout and just stood beside her.

Or of course, sat on the sofa with her.

Awful. It wasn't an oversight.

@Flywheel

Awful. It wasn't an oversight.

No it was no accident. Erdoğan acting the sexist hard man for domestic consumption I expect. Turkey won't be in the EU any time soon.

It was deliberate. Being rude doesn't bother them.

@ErrolTheDragon

Or of course, sat on the sofa with her.

Perhaps that was the intention: make the EU look like subservient petitioners.

I judged Michael on this even more than Erdogan. He should have hung around with Ursula and just not sat.

I am unsure why von der leyen was there but she wasn't the chief 'negotiator' it was Michel and therefore wouldn't have been given a seat with them.

I'm not sure what Michel should have done, he may have made it look more awkward if he didn't sit. It would have been brilliant though if Ursula had felt able to ask nearby staff to bring another chair and styled it off as a mistake rather than sir on the sofa. Not to put the blame on her at all, what a prick to do that to her, but it would have been great if she had.

Michel should have been more politically astute and stayed back as von der Leyen took the seat. One of the EU political concerns about Turkey is their record on human rights including treatment of women. Von der Leyen is the first female leader of the EU. He should have realised that Turkey would have been more embarrassed if he was left standing and it wouldn't have enabled Erdogan to embarrass his colleague by making it appear she shouldn’t have been there.

@highame

I am unsure why von der leyen was there but she wasn't the chief 'negotiator' it was Michel and therefore wouldn't have been given a seat with them.

She is astute enough to understand whether her role is as an observer or as an equal party. It was clear she expected to be there and to be treated with equal status to the male European.

Boys playing silly buggers.

Of course it was entirely deliberate. Erdogan has made his views on women’s inferior status well known by now. And Michel is a spineless covert misogynist himself for going along with it.

Courtesy of Steerpike, this clears up the issue "As Jean Quatremer explains in the French newspaper Liberation the so-called 'incident' is really nothing of the sort and merely the result of the Turks sticking to the EU's own bizarre protocol. With four different European presidencies, it is easy to see how such mix ups can occur but according to the 'interinstitutional agreement' of March 1, 2011 the protocol is fixed exactly as it is in the French Republic. This fixes the order of precedence as the President of the European Parliament coming first, followed by the President of the European Council, the rotating Presidency of the Council of Ministers and, finally, the President of the Commission i.e. von der Leyen. This means that when the Presidents of the European Council and of the Commission are on a mission in third countries, the former is officially the head of the delegation, not the latter. Naturally therefore Michel would sit alongside Erdogan as the head of state while von der Leyen and Cavusoglu would sit socially distanced apart in a four way discussion."

Though Erdogen is dreadful on human and women's rights, so if he gets flung a load of sh*t then so much the better

Being discussed on R4 now

I actually think it would have been better for her to stand right next to them and request another chair be provided before any talking started. Why expect Michel to do it for her? I know it would have been the decent thing for either of the men to do, but why expect them to and do nothing about when they didn't?

Not unexpected behaviour and the sexism in Turkish society is one reason why I never consider it as a holiday destination.

I wish she had stood there until a chair was brought out for her, and she probably does too, but of course it's easy to say that looking back on it. I'm sure at the time she just felt flustered and embarrassed. I know I would have.