Thoughtful Therapists; clinicians against conversion therapy

[TheFleegleHasLanded]

"A diverse group of clinicians, steadfastly against conversion therapy, yet concerned about the clinical implications of the MoU & seeking appropriate amendments'

A new (to me) group who have popped up on Twitter @ThoughtfulTs
Worth a follow if you are on there.

They brought this latest Michael Biggs article (on the Transgender Trend website) to my attention which is a must read:

www.transgendertrend.com/conversion-therapy-gender-identity-survey-analysis/

"In sum, then, the research reported in the pamphlet has little, if any, scientific value. It reinforces the impression that the proposed legislation is motivated by the desire to further institutionalize gender ideology rather than the need to address a real social problem."

Transgender Trend and Michael Biggs are beacons of intelligent integrity in the darkness Fleegle. Thanks for the link - clinicians are probably the only ones who can stop this in its tracks (with a bit of help from brave women like Keira Bell and an as-yet uncaptured High Court).

Thanks for highlighting them op

Is gay conversion therapy happening much in England and Wales? How widespread is it? Is it happening in certain communities?

I know it's a big problem in the USA. Is it here? I don't know. Where are the stats?

If it's happening in certain communities wouldn't it be better to focus on them? We have a fair number of religious sects round here that are really closed. Is this targeting them?

Where's the background and information?

@NiceGerbil

Is gay conversion therapy happening much in England and Wales? How widespread is it? Is it happening in certain communities?

I know it's a big problem in the USA. Is it here? I don't know. Where are the stats?

If it's happening in certain communities wouldn't it be better to focus on them? We have a fair number of religious sects round here that are really closed. Is this targeting them?

Where's the background and information?

I don’t believe it is happening and there is no research that proves it is, apart from, as you say, in perhaps some closed or very small religious communities.

In the recent Westminster Hall debate, it was very telling that the case mentioned by Elliot Colburn MP in his opening speech was from 1964!

It seems the government are going to legislate on this as they are being bounced into it by the LGBTQ lobby groups and want to be seen to be doing something.

This is always the basis for very bad legislation, and as per the infamous Denton’s report there will be a Trojan horse; most likely that anything but affirmation for children struggling with identity issues will be ‘conversion therapy’. That is what the lobby groups will push for.

We will yet again find we are relying on the House of Lords to bring some sanity. Keep your eyes peeled.

I'm a lesbian approaching retirement age and in all my years involved in lesbian circles, lesbian and women's organisations and volunteering on things like Gay Switchboard and lesbian helplines, I've only ever encountered a small handful of people who have been put through or offered gay conversion therapy. I've encountered L and G people looking for ways to change their sexuality, always because of cultural or religious or family issues, and asking for help to find someone to 'convert' them.

The irony is, of course, that Trans ideology converts young lesbians into men and camp gay men into women by denying their sexuality. This law is homophobic.

Interesting to see that the 2 health correspondents/journalists on Newsnight attracted criticism for performing high-quality research to underpin their reporting of the Tavistock (including medically qualified Deb Cohen writing a report for the BMJ):

twitter.com/deb_cohen/status/1378099014340579331

Good to see that Deb and Hannah have supporters but it's shocking that they've endured the type of criticism that they have rather than thoughtful critiques of their work.

Part of the problem is that there is no clear definition of 'conversion therapy.' It can include a range of practices from praying, laying on of hands, pastoral advice, exorcism, aversion therapy, trying to 'teach' straightness and so on. I have heard of individuals (some first hand) being subject to such practices in some mainstream and evangelical Christian churches and in some Jewish and Islamic settings.

CT as above goes hand-in-hand with homophobia in some of these religious settings and communities - or, they would see it, the need to protect individuals from sin.

Thing is, I don't see this as 'therapy' per se and there are miles of difference between this religious therapy and counselling. Some practitioners of CT have actual skills in these areas and others don't. This is a bigger issue (to some extent) about the need to better regulate the health sector to weed out those with dubious credentials and who practice in dubious ways.

I have met one person who had actual therapy as opposed to 'spiritual intervention', but most I have met have 'only' had spiritual intervention (which was traumatic and harmful).

I'm just not sure that these differences are being teased out.

Here is a site that considers this issue from one Christian perspective

www.churchtimes.co.uk/articles/2021/19-march/news/uk/conversion-therapy-ban-could-criminalise-christians-says-evangelical-alliance

There is a hint that 'spiritual intervention' to prevent sin is considered legitimate and good and is practiced in some churches.

The bigger, underlying issue though is homophobia and this needs a wider brush to tackle it.

I forgot to add that obviously I didn't support the L and G people to find someone prepared to try and 'make them straight'. Of the two I remember distinctly, one was a man who'd grown up in a Mormon family here in the UK and had been cast out of his church and rejected by most of his community, including his wife and children, when he came out. I think they'd done the praying and laying-on-of-hands thing to no effect before rejecting him. He'd had a few years exploring his sexuality and having fun but hadn't managed to find a new life-partner and settle down. He was desperate to find someone who could make him straight so that he could return to the security of the Mormons.

The second was a lesbian asylum-seeker from Somalia who'd fled for her life after being caught with her girlfriend. We introduced her to the local lesbian social groups and tried to encourage her, but she couldn't cope with it. She'd internalised the homophobia of her culture so thoroughly that she didn't actually want to be around lesbians. She started attending the local Somali centre (quite a large population in that area) presenting as straight so she'd fit in. She eventually talked to me and other people who were quietly trying to support her, about her desire to be straight and asked if we knew a psychiatrist who could help her sort her head out.

I've heard similar shedbuilder. Such sad stories :(

I just don't know how prevalent gay conversion therapy is in the UK and I'm not convinced the government does either.

In the closed religious sects round here (we are a part of London with a fair few) I doubt it's conversion therapy that's a problem as I can't imagine anyone not keeping it a total secret. Because it would be totally unacceptable and they'd know that. Some of them may well not even be aware of the existence of it (they are vv closed).

I'd think that finding out what is going on in those communities would be the first stop? No one knows.

I've known a lot of gay men and lesbians in my life, I'm nearly 50 so going back years. One friend who was a lesbian was threatened with electric shock treatment by her dad which is awful but was just words, it was never going to happen.

I want some facts. I suspect there are religious groups where it's way more common, should the focus not be on them?

In short it feels like it's copying a nice sounding thing from USA where it is a big problem, without any data behind it, and yes it's being used as a Trojan horse. Obviously.

I just had a sudden thought. That Somali lesbian would be prime candidate for transitioning, wouldn't she? As I understood her situation, and there were language issues so I may be wrong, she didn't like the idea of lesbianism but was drawn to same-sex relationships — for which she kind of hated herself. She desperately wanted to be accepted as straight while also having a relationship with a woman. So 'becoming a man' — the Iranian solution — would have suited her. I'm now thinking about some of the self-hating gay men I've known over the years and wondering if they were motivated to solve the problem by transitioning. I'm pretty sure that that applies to the very first trans person I knew, who was a friend's boyfriend who'd been brought up in a homophobic family and transitioned in his 30s. I think homophobia is seeping out in all sorts of unexpected ways.

I think you're right @shed i wonder what happened to the Somali woman. I would like to raise public awareness of how rare and how religious conversion therapy is. It's just not happening on a grand scale here

They are already pushing for workshops to support their version of conversion therapy.
www.facebook.com/450126148504054/posts/1699162896933700/?d=n

This one from Intercom on SW.

Ooohhhhhh!

It's about making money flogging their training isn't it.

Yes I mean obviously.

Just noting this regarding conversion therapy - this group of clinicians is still fighting to get an audience/conversation with the Memorum of Understanding coalition:

'We are finding it impossible to get anyone from the MoU coalition to engage with us about the MoU review due July ‘21, why do they refuse to talk to us?'

'We wrote to all MoU signatories on 23 April, but the Chair of the coalition blocked us and told others not to engage with us!

They are trying to railroad us into affirmative therapy and we won’t have it!'

twitter.com/ThoughtfulTs