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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Feminists are not fascists - a reply to RS21 - the splitters split over being gender critical

34 replies

stumbledin · 07/04/2021 17:07

Not likely to shake the political world but thought its good to know some small fringe groups are listening to women!

... Those of us committed to a Marxism based on material reality, and one which challenges wrong ideas, cannot accept it. In Britain and Ireland women are asserting that their sex is real. Labelling them as fascists is just one more misogynistic insult. ...

socialistdemocracy.org/RecentArticles/RecentFeministsAreNotFascistsAReplyToRS21.html

OP posts:
yeahbutnaw · 07/04/2021 17:16

I don't think anyone would argue with the statement that "feminists aren't fascists".

But it's also true that most feminists don't subscribe to anti-trans ideology. So there's that.

yeahbutnaw · 07/04/2021 17:16

Perhaps "Anti trans feminists aren't fascists" would be a more honest description.

yourhairiswinterfire · 07/04/2021 17:18

Think you spelt 'pro-women' wrong there, yeah...

334bu · 07/04/2021 17:30

Since when were feminists anti trans? Pro women, pro defending sex based rights yes .

Biscuitsanddoombar · 07/04/2021 17:33

Pro women and girls and ensuring that the rights that women and girls have under the equality act to single sex spaces are upheld

yeahbutnaw · 07/04/2021 18:24

@334bu

Since when were feminists anti trans? Pro women, pro defending sex based rights yes .
They're not. That's precisely my point.

The vast majority of feminists don't agree with the anti-trans ideology so prevalent here. The vast majority don't believe that trans rights are the biggest threat to women's rights.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 07/04/2021 18:26

The vast majority of feminists don't agree with the anti-trans ideology so prevalent here.

Surveyed them all, have we? And pro women and girls is not "anti trans" Confused

yeahbutnaw · 07/04/2021 18:28

@Ereshkigalangcleg

The vast majority of feminists don't agree with the anti-trans ideology so prevalent here.

Surveyed them all, have we? And pro women and girls is not "anti trans" Confused

I know. You keep agreeing with my point.

You can be pro-women's rights and pro-trans rights. The vast majority of non-mumsnetters are.

Babdoc · 07/04/2021 18:30

yeahbutnaw, you claim to speak for the “vast majority of feminists”.
Given that a feminist is someone who supports women’s rights, including the right to single sex spaces, I believe you are mistaken.
What evidence do you have for your assertion that the majority of feminists support the eradication of their own sex based rights and definition?

Alex2112 · 07/04/2021 18:31

Madness to suggest that gender critical people are fascists ...

People who stand up for women's rights to female only spaces, and women's sports are standing up for simple freedoms.
That is not fascism.

It is actually perverse to undermine women's rights. Sadly LBGT community is now getting obsessed with what they perceive as "trans" rights, who, in effect have the same rights as us all. Human rights.

The fact that people try to suggest women, or anyone, who protects western culture, that includes respecting women's rights is just daft... liberal leftie nonsense.

Soros is laughing at the west as he is winning

Helleofabore · 07/04/2021 18:41

The vast majority of feminists don't agree with the anti-trans ideology so prevalent here. The vast majority don't believe that trans rights are the biggest threat to women's rights.

I think you’d be surprised....

And I think you’d be also surprised that even those professing to be supporting trans rights will have limits to their support.

But then, you must have some evidence behind what you say.

So, please post it to show us that we are wrong.

mangoontoast · 07/04/2021 18:41

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 07/04/2021 18:44

Think the person obsessed with toilets is you?

yourhairiswinterfire · 07/04/2021 18:48

The vast majority of feminists don't agree with the anti-trans ideology so prevalent here.

What 'anti-trans ideology'?

There's a thread today about women in prison in California being told by the prison guards to expect sexual violence, because prisoners from the male estate that self id as women are being moved to the female estate. The guards have said they'll need to set up a maternity facility and get inmates on nanny duty to cope with the babies being born as a result of this.

What kind of 'feminist' accepts that rape/sexual assault of women locked in women's prison is just inevitable? What kind of 'feminist' is cool with that? Anyone that thinks that's fine is no friend of women. Prison guards telling female inmates to expect to be raped or sexually assaulted should send ANY woman's blood cold, whether they're a feminist or not.

Female prisoners in the UK have been raped/sexually assault by transfers from the male estate, too. One of them has recently taken the MoJ to court.

Is that what ''anti-trans'' means, wanting women to be protected whilst they're locked? Wanting them to not be raped? Is that seriously asking too much?

Helleofabore · 07/04/2021 18:49

So... single sex spaces are limited to toilets now?

How about we have some intelligent dialogue about what single sex spaces really encompass? Toilets are probably the least of them. But, the easiest target for those wanting to shame women discussing where the rights of another group conflict those set up to protect women and children.

It does show a distinct lack of thought and ability to articulate an argument.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 07/04/2021 18:49

You can be pro-women's rights and pro-trans rights. The vast majority of non-mumsnetters are.

Yes. I am even a Mumsnetter and I am. I support both female only spaces for some things for the privacy, dignity, safety and emotional well-being of women and girls, and also the right for trans people to have legal protection from being discriminated against due to their identity.

Like the majority of people in the U.K. Who categorically aren't gender ideologists.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 07/04/2021 18:50

It does show a distinct lack of thought and ability to articulate an argument.

It really does.

Helleofabore · 07/04/2021 18:50

Sorry that post was addressed to mangoontoast

ArabellaScott · 07/04/2021 19:05

I love it when people come and tell us what feminists should think and feel.

stumbledin · 07/04/2021 19:15

Did anyone read the article? ie why this breakaway group from the breakaway is challenging?

... Fascism is not networks of left feminists who argue that one does not change biological sex by an act of will, instead arguing that it is a material biological reality with social significance due to sexism.

In the first of their videos RS21 publish without commentary, context or qualification a contribution giving “a lowdown on transphobia in Britain over the last decade” by Evren, a trans activist and podcaster.

Where do these views lead?

Evren makes no discernible distinction between genuine fascist movements and active feminists. He modifies the abusive label “TERF” from the customary “trans exclusionary radical feminists” to “trans exterminatory”. As the video goes on he talks of ‘gender critical feminists’ as having “a fascist conception of the child”. He tells his listeners that they are “eugenicists”; they “enact political violence”; their end game is “total trans extermination”; they “organise child abuse”. The only distinction he makes is that they are a “weirdly gender crank version of other fascists”. Assertion follows assertion and no evidence of any sort is presented for any of these claims.

Marxists who accept this line of argument have clear responsibilities. It is their job to drive out of the labour movement the activists, who are overwhelmingly female, that hold these views These women must be made pariahs. Feminist meetings must be disrupted by huge counter-mobilisations and physical violence where necessary. Anyone familiar with Trotsky’s writings on fascism, or how the SWP occasionally challenged the British National Party and National Front, would draw the same conclusion. ...

And you wonder where all those intersectional feminists get their hatred of women from.

OP posts:
Erkrie · 07/04/2021 19:30

The vast majority of feminists don't agree with the anti-trans ideology so prevalent here.

There isn't anti trans ideology here. There's pro women's rights though. Which includes trans men as biological women.

The vast majority don't believe that trans rights are the biggest threat to women's rights.

Trans people have human rights. Obviously human rights aren't a threat to women's rights. Transwomen don't have women's rights though if that's what you mean. So yes, if they are seeking to appropriate rights meant for the female sex, then yes this is a threat to women's rights and safety. But only someone with their head deliberately buried in the sand, or someone with nefarious reasons would suggest otherwise.

If your vast majority is made up of a bunch of angry transwomen, MRAs (neither who are feminists anyway) and their blue haired allies, then you'll find this isn't anywhere near a vast majority at all.

MichelleofzeResistance · 07/04/2021 19:36

It is not women who continually try to force the idea that women having rights and caring about women is intrinsically harmful to trans people. And that the only way to be 'pro' trans people (not even sure what that means) is for women to surrender their rights.

It's a very odd point of view.

It does not matter how much it is attempted to minimise the number of women with concerns, with incompatible needs - as if making them a minority devalues them and makes them too unimportant to care about.

You are still saying some women are not able to have their needs met by abandoning sex based needs. Some women say no. Some women will be excluded and harmed by this.

and that doesn't matter .

Yes. I'm afraid women do matter too. And at 51% of the population, the number of women likely to have needs and issues that are incompatible with losing sex based rights will be much larger than the less than 1% of the population who are trans.

And yet you are not arguing that they are too small a number to be relevant or cared about.

Solutions must work for everyone. If you want to see that as an evil pov then I'm afraid that's your problem.

MeltsAway · 07/04/2021 19:40

I support both female only spaces for some things for the privacy, dignity, safety and emotional well-being of women and girls, and also the right for trans people to have legal protection from being discriminated against due to their identity

Me too.

StrangeLookingParasite · 07/04/2021 19:52

The vast majority of feminists don't agree with the anti-trans ideology so prevalent here. The vast majority don't believe that trans rights are the biggest threat to women's rights.

Feminists are not fascists - a reply to RS21 - the splitters split over being gender critical
Abhannmor · 07/04/2021 19:57

You can support both up to the point they start to conflict with each other.

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