Is mental illness an excuse for bad behaviour?

[WomanWithoutTheMan]

Similarly, is a bad childhood an excuse too?

Maybe FWR isn't the right place for this. At the same time, I often read about women being emotionally-blackmailed into forgiving their abusers because their abuser has a mental illness or traumatic past.

Mental illness and bad upbringings seem to be taken into account when abusers are sentenced too.

One of my best friends was badly abused as a child. Luckily she has managed to recover as much as possible. However, for years she was told that whilst the abuse wasn't her fault, it wasn't her abusers either. He himself had a bad childhood and was an alcoholic, which many people thought was an excuse for his disgusting behaviour. Because of this, my friend was always told that she had to forgive him. Personally, my sympathy for that man's addiction and childhood stopped when he abused my friend, but maybe I'm too hard-arsed?

No.

It can form part of a context for understanding behaviour, however. Which may or may not be of use to people affected by those blaming a traumatic past or mental illness for the harm they do.

I think you raise two separate issues here, OP. Mental illness can be a legitimate defence even to a murder charge, if the defendant is too psychotic to have responsibility for their actions.
Forgiveness is a separate thing entirely. As a Christian, I believe genuine repentance has to come before forgiveness can be sought or given. Nobody should feel obliged to forgive an unrepentant abuser, no matter what their mitigating circumstances.

No. It explains it but doesn’t ever excuse it.

It's a tricky one to answer. When does a victim stop being a victim? Or are some victims deserving of sympathy and some not, if not, why?

How long is a piece of string.

I know someone who has had episodes of psychosis. It would not be an excuse but it would be a reason.

It depends on the type and severity of mental illness.

Quite frequently on Mumsnet I see 'Mental Illness is NO EXCUSE!!!" and such, when nobody has actually attempted to excuse behaviour, merely explain that a MH condition can absolutely EXPLAIN certain behaviours.

It's especially common in threads where there's a depressed husband not pulling his weight. 'OMG Depression is no EXCUSE for treating you like shit" etc, when the reality is the depression is absolutely 100% the cause of the poor behaviour. It doesn't excuse it, but it does explain it.

I know this isn't exactly what you were asking about OP, but being a subject that is particularly emotive for me, I do get really antsy about the number of times I see the term 'excuse' used in reference to a mental health condition on here. It's abundantly clear that a lot of people still have virtually no idea of what the material consequences of serious mental illnesses actually mean, and are quite happy to explain everything away by simply labelling people 'dicks' and such.

It's very tricky in all directions.

Someone may not be able to help their behaviour and actions because of their illness. That does not make it excusable or something that another person must tolerate and accept, or something that another person feels unable to have boundaries or that they have to subordinate their own feelings and needs and experiences to.

If you live with someone, for example as a sibling, who through their condition will sometimes have massive, violent meltdowns, you may fully understand that they do not choose to do this, that they are in severe distress, that they cannot decide not to be triggered and that their behaviour is extreme panic. It does not change the fact that you have (probably repeatedly) experienced fear and possibly extreme fear, been threatened or physically hurt, verbally abused, been there when things were being thrown or smashed, when another family member was hurt, witnessed self harm... it does not change that these things are terribly distressing and harmful to be exposed to, that these experiences may inevitably change your feelings and trust towards the person, that you yourself may end up with trauma and issues upto and including ptsd. But you may well be in a situation where everyone repeatedly reminds you that it's not the fault of the person causing you this distress, you should continue to participate in the usual, loving way towards them without consequences for what has happened or redress (often because to try and talk about it would trigger another overwhelming feeling and reaction in them) - it's a situation of great inequality. Attachment requires positive experiences on both sides. Reciprocation. Equality of treatment and values. Respected boundaries and mutual trust. People become tired and worn out, compassion fatigue is a very real thing.

It is very, very tricky and I have huge respect for people who can make it work - I have seen it not work, and people trapped in situations where they feel abused but are unable to say so or protect themselves because of sensitivity to the person with the illness or disability.

Not an excuse but sometimes an explanation

I think the important thing is that even though mental illness or a traumatic childhood may partly explain behaviour, nobody should ever feel they have to forgive abusive behaviour towards them or stay in an abusive relationship on the grounds that their abuser is/was mentally ill or a victim themselves.

I can't speak for mental illness but in terms of bad childhood, the long term effects can be devastating. Lack of secure attachment from caregivers, trauma, Adverse Childhood Experiences (ACES) etc. can all lead to incredibly damaged individuals. With the lack of funding in children mental health services, these children grow up having never had their issues addressed.

mmm such a complex issue so multi layered .....
what does excuse mean exactly ? that we forgive and then justify peoples behaviour.. Psychosis , post natal depression , clinical depression are all very real to name just a few .....and this is due to chemical reactions in the body that effects the brain and thinking processes
In reality we just do not have the skills to manage on our own so we are vulnerable ourselves and can become the victim of the persons illness...some would argue some states of mental illness maybe a form of learned behaviours as its become the only way they know . ..of how to maintain and create dependency/connection with their perceived loved ones .

scenario: true story - 2 boys attended the same special needs school they were both exposed at the same time to sexual abuse by a teacher, the one boy grew up to become an abuser and is currently in prison serving time for abusing young boys
The second boy grew up and did not abuse others .. though he did have issues with emotional trauma and self medicated with alcohol.

both boys came from unhappy and dysfunctional parental homes
yet they both created different pathways for themselves or did they ?
were there any real conscious choices? can we really predict the complexities of the outcome of life experiences ? and why was the blue print so different for these boys now men, both had the same /similar experience at school/family etc

and are these outcomes excuses or expectations ......?

That said if the mental health issue is having such a negative impact on the partner /close friend it is not disloyal to distance them self and sign post to a skilled practitioner who can be objective and helpful
we have to be honest we do not have the skills and must not be made to feel guilty and stay in a situation which could become potentially abusive though I know that it is easy said than done .....

It's very complex.

I have a male friend (probably best described as ex friend) who was diagnosed with bi polar but I think is now major depressive disorder.

He treated his ex, my friend who became a sahm so he could focus on earning a lot of money, incredibly badly; financial and verbal abuse.

She hid it and excused it for years due to his mental health. Only later did she describe things that were clearly unacceptable and abusive. He is also a highly qualified hcp and so a lot of it was very hidden, apart from when he's been sectioned.

He's still abusing her via the children, also never ending attempts to pay less maintenance.

And I've just recently found that another friend with two small children has experienced the same, except he hasn't worked for year (also was highly trained in his field.)

And yet I have two other friends who have bi polar disorder and are not at all abusive. Yes things have been very hard, and it can be hard on the partners. But the difference is the ability to recognise the impact of the illness on the relationship and their partners and take steps to safeguard it.

Important to recognise there are Aces but also bces, benevolent childhood experiences.

Some children also have amazing natural resilience and a drive to be different and make a difference to their adult lives.

The physical damage that can happen to the brain in early childhood via emotional abuse can be extremely difficult for an individual to cope with.

I think the quote “a mental health problem isn’t your fault, but it is your responsibility” is a good one.

One of my best friends was badly abused as a child. Luckily she has managed to recover as much as possible. However, for years she was told that whilst the abuse wasn't her fault, it wasn't her abusers either. He himself had a bad childhood and was an alcoholic, which many people thought was an excuse for his disgusting behaviour. Because of this, my friend was always told that she had to forgive him. Personally, my sympathy for that man's addiction and childhood stopped when he abused my friend, but maybe I'm too hard-arsed?

I'm sorry your friend had to endure being told she should forgive him. That's a pretty sick/twisted message to be forced onto the victim of abuse. You're not hard arsed at all! Those warped messages have far reaching negative consequences

I don't believe mental ill health is an excuse for bad behaviour. It can be a reason, but excusing abuse, assault, rape on the basis of the perpetrator having been a victim does not sit well with me at all.

I feel angry when victims/survivors of abuse are minimised and the abuser is excused with the standard line 'awww, he had a tough childhood'.

I was physically, emotionally and (indirectly) sexually abused by both 'parents'. I haven't committed any offences against anyone else and never would engage in the behaviour they subjected me to over my entire childhood and beyond.

I agree that some cases are complex and when there is severe mental ill health i.e. when someone is psychotic and has 'lost touch with reality' then there may be extenuating circumstances. But it's only ever a reason and doesn't excuse the behaviour.

The abuse he went through might explain some of his behaviour, it might help people understand and it should mean he gets some help/treatment. There is no way on earth his victim needs to feel sympathy or understanding for him, she has enough to deal with.

@WarriorN

Important to recognise there are Aces but also bces, benevolent childhood experiences.

Some children also have amazing natural resilience and a drive to be different and make a difference to their adult lives.

The physical damage that can happen to the brain in early childhood via emotional abuse can be extremely difficult for an individual to cope with.

Absolutely agree with this. Resilience is a big part of the protective factors to CG counteract adverse childhood experiences.

Am I right in thinking that pregnant women are now screened for ACES (there certainly was a pilot a few years ago) as part of their prenatal care?

Just for those who don't know, people who have 4 or more ACES are more likely to encounter all sorts of issues when they are adults. Here is a graphic to illustrate:

www.wales.nhs.uk/sitesplus/documents/888/PHW%20ACEs%20Resilience%20infographic%20%28Eng%29.pdf

It seems very common to diagnose people who've behaved badly and/or are abusive with mental illness, especially bpd or npd, when in reality they probably wouldn't meet the criteria.

I think we find evil difficult to explain and so 'they must be wrong in the head' becomes the comfortable way to process what they've done. People get to feel like they've been empathic and compassionate, whilst also getting to 'other' the perpetrator.

This is one of the reasons why people with mental illness are much more likely to be victims of abuse. People with mental illness (particular those who want to get better) are very vulnerable to gaslighting, and can easily be made to believe that they're the problem. I think it's very possible for the partner with mental illness to be the one being abused, but to believe that they are the one causing problem.

'Mental illness is no excuse' can be an awful weapon in the wrong hands.

I was in an abusive relationship with someone with mental health problems and as a result was referred to the domestic abuse service. They were very clear that mental health is not an excuse for abuse and like Warrior I too have friends with the same mental illness who are not abusive. It is a very difficult and complex issue because lifelong personality disorders and other mental health conditions do obviously have a huge impact on the sufferer and it is difficult if not impossible to separate the person from the illness. What I would say in my case though was that although my abuser had no insight into his illness he did have control over his actions in that he could switch the abuse on and off e.g. behave differently to other people and when other people were present. One analogy the domestic abuse worker gave was of men who have issues with alcohol who go home and take it out on the partner and children but have managed to be perfectly civil to everyone on the bus on the way home. I would sadly say in my case conditioning to forgive and be sympathetic meant I stayed in the relationship for way too long. There was always an excuse ie. tired, stressed etc and this is very common with abusers; it is never their fault. Therefore even his eventual mh diagnosis, although it may have exacerbated his abusive behaviour, is certainly not a valid excuse for it and of course neither it lessen the impact it had. A comment I saw once on the domestic abuse survivors forum which is relevant to the OPs original post was something along the lines of "I feel sorry for the abused little boy he was but have no sympathy for the abusive man he became".

Papaver very similar to my situation. I'm afraid however desperately sorry I was for my ex's very genuine struggles, it was no reason to remain in a relationship where I was frightened, miserable, abused and trapped in a caretaking role whilst being screamed at, things being smashed and thrown, self harm being used as a weapon to punish me (you didn't call me on time, look what you made me do) and suicide threats. My feelings for them were totally changed by what I experienced, but I wasn't supposed to mind or remember what happened last night or hold grudges or flinch when I heard that tone or saw that look.

t took family to point out to me that treating me in this way was not an inevitable part of their illness, and even if it was, I did not have to stay in the relationship where I was no longer happy or willing to accept that kind of treatment.

I think it's necessary to understand what is meant by "excuse". Because sometimes people seem to think it means something else, I'm still not sure what.

But if someone was abusive, and the explanation is, he himself was abused, had mental illness, was a drug addict, whatever, that's an explanation.

The question is culpability. Could this person actually have made different choices at that point in their lives? Sometimes the answer is now, their illness means they are no longer capable of it. So in some sense they are not culpable, they are excused. Maybe if they had made different choices years ago they would have more options in the present. In these cases very often it's not really possible to know to what extent a person could have chosen differently.

Are they legally culpable? That's another question - there is a high bar there to excuse an action due to mental incapacity.

Sometimes people seem to think that when there is no culpability, it is the same as saying what was done wasn't serious or damaging. That's just false but it seems a common leap.

“Tout comprendre c’est tout pardonner.”

If experiencing sexual abuse was a direct predictor of perpetrating it, then women would make up the majority of abusers.

That said, mental health, previous trauma etc can definitely go some way to explain behaviours, but must never be used as an excuse. (Except in cases where people genuinely have no control of their actions e.g. psychosis).

Somewhat unpopular opinion, but we've become too accepting of "excuses" for poor behaviour, rather than teaching people resilience. Also encouraging people to self diagnose natural life experiences as disorders is not helpful. Feeling sad is not depression. Feeling worried or uncertain is not the same as an anxiety disorder. Responding to grief or stress by closing off or crying etc does not mean you are ill. It means you are human.

You can excuse someone if their illness means they do not have capacity to understand what they are doing. Eg, middle of a psychotic episode.