"They can request another space"

[BlackAlys]

Still reeling after an inset day talk on Diversity and Inclusion. The group delivering the 2.5 hour long class showed us a video of a trans girl, primary age, happily playing with friends and their parents saying how wonderful it all was.

This very feminine looking transgirl has, in my Headteacher's mind, become the poster child who represents all children who are transitioning and he has now proclaimed a push for all trans pupils to be allowed to toilet, change, swim, play with wherever they are comfortable.

Before now, our teenage trans pupils have been offered an individual changing area/toilet cubicle for their modesty and dignity. It's worked. We don't have trans girls...yet.

I run residential trips tied to my subject area and asked about the sleeping arrangements, should the situation arise. The Headteacher now feels that a transgirl should be able to share dormitories and changing areas with girls and trans is to share with the boys.

I pointed out that our pupils with strong religious faiths will not be able to/wouldn't want to; also that the vulnerable girls with haunted pasts won't want to; I pointed out that, bottom line, we have sex segregation for a very good reason and the very basic right of dignity and privacy should be respected. I asked him how that will be navigated and he replied that if a girl objects, then she can sleep/be catered for elsewhere.

It's gutted me. Girls, move out if you don't like it.

I pointed out that Sex is a protected characteristic and he shrugged and said that we have to evolve with how society is changing.

I asked him how his daughter would feel about his desire to throw her rights to privacy away, and he told me she'd be fine with it.

He's seen had heated the story of the little transgirl and he is utterly captured.

I know my card is now marked and am wondering how I'll be treated upon my return.

[quote R0wantrees]Useful article by ExcelPope (a school governor) identifying how Safeguarding should work:
(extract)
"I spend a lot of time designing policies and procedures, and what I tell people is this:- Imagine a worst-case scenario occurs. There is an official investigation, where you’re asked “What did you do to prevent this happening?”. Now imagine what answer you’d like to be able to give to that question in that scenario – that’s the starting point for writing your policies.

In that vein, here’s a scenario.

You are the head-teacher of a secondary school, with pupils aged 11-18. A police officer arrives at the school and asks to speak to you. They have found a video on a porn site which shows the changing-rooms at your school, including a number of girls, who appear to be aged 13-15, in various states of undress. It has clearly been filmed with a concealed camera-phone.

The video has been taken down, but not before it had tens of thousands of views. The account that posted it has been traced to a student at the school who identifies themselves as trans and was, in accordance with the guidance, allowed to use the female changing rooms.

The police need a female member of staff to view the video with them, to identify the 20 or 30 teenage girls who appear in it, so that they and their parents can be informed that they have been victims of voyeurism.

What did you do to prevent this happening?" (continues)

There are around 2.2 million males aged 13-18 in the UK, no matter how much experience you have with children, with trans people, with trans-children, you cannot absolutely assert that none of them will abuse, or attempt to abuse, the guidance given in a manner that infringes of the rights of other students.

This isn’t about demonising all trans people, or suggesting that any given one of them would act in such a manner. This is about the risk presented by the guidance itself, whether that risk can be mitigated in a manner which is proportional to the potential seriousness of the outcome and whether the risk is, in part or in whole, outweighed by the risks of not implementing the guidance." (continues)

excelpope.wordpress.com/2019/02/28/the-unaskable-question/[/quote]
Roman, that's incredibly helpful. Thank you.

[quote Gassylady]@BlackAlys I would go with the nuclear option. Discuss P Bunce with them and how they were recognised for an award even though they only present as a woman for part of the time. Ask how he feels about that degree of inclusivity. If he feels that is ok I’d follow him into the gents toilets as I would be identifying as BlackOsian today [/quote]
Well, there are enough staff to probably give that a go. Many of us feel the same.

I can predict their reactions : "that's an extreme example", "that's hardly likely to happen here", "we're talking about innocent children, not adults". - FFS, it's almost as if they cannot join the dots.

As you know, ultimately the school governors (rather than the Head) have responsibility for the welfare of all the children and staff in a school.

The issue with girls of minority faiths is an important one. He will have to provide alternative accommodation or be discriminating against them. Are there many in the school? Has he told all parents of girls the situation?

As no under 18 will have a GRC and schools by law have to provide single sex accommodation I think he will also be in breach of the law.

@Mif4

Ffs what's happening to our children?

What happened to teaching them to love their bodies and that they are all wonderful and individual for a reason.

How many trans kids are in the school?

I just still can't get my head around this.
I don't understand why it's even a topic for discussion whilst they are children and go to school to learn. Why are they sexualising bloody everything?
I'm so fucking sad at the world we live in that women and girls are just underclass citizens now.

Yes, 100%

At the moment, over the last 2 years, we have had about 7 transboys. I know 3 of these have shown autistic tendencies and 2 others were in care - SA in their histories and have changed their minds about transitioning since.

I can see how easy it is for me to be labelled as a bigot or transphobic because without due diligence and critical thought, I am opposing what society is evolving to - that's how many staff and my SLT will see me.

BlackAlys

Kirsty Williams needs to understand that we don’t want this. We need them to understand. Happy to write as well. Let us Welsh women unite.

And given the recent revelations about sexual harrassment of girls in schools how is allowing a boy to share spaces where girls undress improving things? What is the difference between a transgirl and a boy?

I can predict their reactions : "that's an extreme example", "that's hardly likely to happen here", "we're talking about innocent children, not adults".

Safeguarding and Child Protection policies are required to consider such risks, however unlikely, and mitigate against them.

As well as the potential safety issues, girls privacy and dignity is compromised when male peers have access to toilets, changing rooms or sleeping areas.

@R0wantrees

As you know, ultimately the school governors (rather than the Head) have responsibility for the welfare of all the children and staff in a school.

Absolutely. This is important to remember.

@AlwaysTawnyOwl

The issue with girls of minority faiths is an important one. He will have to provide alternative accommodation or be discriminating against them. Are there many in the school? Has he told all parents of girls the situation?

As no under 18 will have a GRC and schools by law have to provide single sex accommodation I think he will also be in breach of the law.

Thank you Tawny. This is what I need to hear.

Actually, it seems incredible that unisex toilets are allowed - just musing about the number of new builds with unisex toilets instead of sex segregated toilets.

At the moment, over the last 2 years, we have had about 7 transboys. I know 3 of these have shown autistic tendencies and 2 others were in care - SA in their histories and have changed their minds about transitioning since.

There's a useful article by the Guardian from 2018 which recognises these issues.

'Schools pulled into row over helping transgender children
As more teens come out as trans, experts clash over how schools should help'
(extract)
[Stephanie] Davies-Arai says her broader concern is that by affirming students’ gender identity, schools may be nudging them down a route that can lead to cross-sex hormones and life-changing surgery without enough time to reflect. Teachers, she says, “are essentially being forced to collude in an experimental approach towards children with gender dysphoria”. She adds: “You can support children and accept them, without affirming their belief that their body is ‘wrong’.”

Adele Robinson (not her real name), a head of year at a secondary school, shares Davies-Arai’s worries. The school has had 12 children, all girls, come out as transgender in the past 18 months. The majority, she says, have autism, and some have experienced sexual abuse.

When they come out, she says, they have brought in information sourced from Tumblr blogs and YouTube videos. Although her team does its best to “support every child in a loving, kind and compassionate way”, she feels that staff are too frightened to challenge what she sees as harmful practices: “We have chest binders worn in school, which is horrible. If a child was cutting, they would be straight in with a counsellor. Yet damaging developing breast tissue goes unquestioned. It’s a gross failure in terms of child protection.”

[Susie] Green disagrees, and argues for a biological underpinning to transgender identity: “If a child or young person consistently, insistently and persistently states their feelings, to ignore, punish or repress their gender identity would effectively be reparative therapy.” (continues)
www.theguardian.com/education/2018/may/15/transgender-row-teachers-afraid-challenge-breast-binding

You could also ask whether insurers would cover payouts/how they would view it if a girl was sexually assaulted or filmed while changing for PE, or sharing sleeping accommodation on a trip - or worst case, became pregnant, as a PP said.

And you could point out that 80%-plus of children diagnosed with gender dysphoria eventually desist and become comfortable with their sex (if not put on blockers first) - so what happens when Adam decides he is Anna, shares the changing rooms with the girls for two years, then decides actually he was really Adam all along?

And point out that it won't necessarily be the sweet, quiet, arty, feminine boy he might be thinking of who comes out as a transgirl - it could just as easily be the massive, muscly bullying one who the girls are already afraid of, and any policies the school makes on this would need to be applicable to both....

All of your advice and references are so vital to me. Thank you. I've felt on shaky ground ever since this conversation took place and while I have colleagues who know how pupil-centred and caring I am, we also have a woke-crew in favour of pronoun announcing on emails etc.

Thank you all.

The group delivering the 2.5 hour long class showed us a video of a trans girl, primary age, happily playing with friends and their parents saying how wonderful it all was.

This very feminine looking transgirl has, in my Headteacher's mind, become the poster child who represents all children who are transitioning and he has now proclaimed a push for all trans pupils to be allowed to toilet, change, swim, play with wherever they are comfortable.

Aside from the Safeguarding issues this might also usefully prompt a wider discussion about sexism in schools. Why shouldn't boys play with girls, what can the school do to break down sexist stereotypes etc?
Would feminine boys who do not like football etc be bullied if they wanted to play with girls during break and conversely in what way are girls in the school pressured to conform to sexist stereotypes of presentation or play?

17-01-2019 NEU
"The results of UK Feminista and NEU’s groundbreaking study are clear: schools, education bodies and Government must take urgent action to tackle sexism in schools. "It's just everywhere" is a study on sexism in schools and how we tackle it."
neu.org.uk/advice/its-just-everywhere-sexism-schools

I think the revelations coming out about the degree of sexual assault in schools is going to force some very uncomfortable admissions that we're talking about female children being the massive majority group suffering, and that safety, privacy and dignity is going to have to be better assured. And this is not going to work alongside mixed sex facilities.

The HT is already talking about a third space. So essentially a mixed sex space plus a female only space for female children this will not work for, or who do not consent. Ok, that's the way to go - although yes, it says a lot about the problems with this whole attitude that the girls' space caters for male children before it is inclusive of all the female ones. It is fundamentally sexist. However third spaces is the way to go.

So: Where will the third space be? How will it be provided?

What will it be called? Obviously nothing derogatory or doing anything to harm good feeling between children of all sexes and genders is crucial: see the equality act.

How will all female children be notified that this is an option that they have, with no judgement and no need for them to disclose personal information and justify their choice? It will obviously be important for this to be done up front and openly, and positively. And for it to be made very clear, for the protection of the trans children involved, that everyone's needs are met equally and solutions work for everyone, and other children needing other provision is no rejection of them as a person. Different people have different needs and beliefs.

Thinking ahead to safeguard the trans children: what would happen in the event that the massive majority of female children require the female only provision? Particularly if there is a situation in which one trans classmate is one that most girls are able to manage changing alongside, but another is not? An example raised by a MNetter with her daughter at school: one young teenager well known from early childhood and much trusted within the group, and one young teenager who had always been known as a male child and identified as a girl recently, and was known to the girls as having some uncomfortable and sexualised behaviours that had caused the girls some concerns in the past. Obviously this cannot work for some trans children and not others, and these situations have to be foreseen and planned for in order to proactively protect these children from upsetting situations and experiences. It may be easier to protect the smaller number and individual needs of these children by providing them with an additional choice to their sex based space rather than try to gate keep and manage the entire female population's needs and issues.

Oh and obviously: careful action taken with possible links to the bullying policy that no child ever experiences pressure, encouragement, bullying or discrimination for taking their preferred choice of space, and is never asked to justify this.

And would have to be considered as some parents may wish to make choices for their children as to which space is used.

Sorry. Absolute minefield and new implications keep occurring.

I can predict their reactions : "that's an extreme example", "that's hardly likely to happen here", "we're talking about innocent children, not adults". - FFS, it's almost as if they cannot join the dots.

Ask them if they’ve been listening to the news over the last few weeks re the rape culture in our schools.

Extreme outcomes are always considered in Health and Safety assessments. It is never valid to exclude them.

My confusion/issue - I completely get the NEED for sake sex spaces. But how do you explain to a group of young girls that the pupil that looks and addressed as a boy is sleeping in their room with a bunch of girls? Surely they will assume they are a boy boy trans so would be confused or uncomfortable having a ‘male’ in the room if they want to be in an all female room?

Interesting thing here, regarding the way various people merrily wave people of one sex with gender dysphoria into spaces normally reserved for the other sex.

It turns out men really don't think false rape allegations happen or that they ruin lives, either. If they did, they would be anxious about the very same, and eager to give vulnerable teens with gender dysphoria their own spaces. For their protection.

When male medics have to give a female patient a personal examination, it's usual for them to call in a female member of staff as chaperone. That is for their professional protection, as well as the comfort of the patient.

No-one seems to worry about the position in which they're placing teenagers with gender dysphoria though. Why not?

re worst case scenarios. A more realistic one could be perhaps:

What if a 14yo girl got pregnant on a school trip because they shared a room with their 14yo transgirlfriend?

Normal 'safeguarding' would have rules such as boys are not allowed in the girls bedrooms etc. There is a reason for that.

@toocold54

My confusion/issue - I completely get the NEED for sake sex spaces. But how do you explain to a group of young girls that the pupil that looks and addressed as a boy is sleeping in their room with a bunch of girls? Surely they will assume they are a boy boy trans so would be confused or uncomfortable having a ‘male’ in the room if they want to be in an all female room?

By the age at which residential trips occur, short hair and 'male' clothes are unlikely to make a trans boy look any more male than the shorthaired jeans wearing girls, I'd have thought.

What a surprise that the Headteacher is a man, misogyny, sexism and a blatant lack of care or concern for female pupils, who'd have thought it.