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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Stop mixing up sex and gender GPs told

165 replies

flyingbuttress43 · 03/04/2021 14:34

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2021/04/02/doctors-must-stop-mixing-sex-gender-patients-undergoing-wrong/

Doctors have been told to stop mixing up sex and gender because it can end up with people getting the wrong treatment.

Senior medical researchers led by the University of St Andrews said there was clear evidence that biological sex and gender were both powerful risk factors for "virtually every disease and affect every organ."

The article is behind a pay wall, so here are some salient points...

Sex differences in drug metabolism were well recognised;
Gender significantly affected how a person engaged with treatment;
One GP, commenting on the article on the BMJ website said she spent hours a week ensuring the right people were called for cervical smears;
NHS systems do not allow for sex and gender to be recorded separately;
Sex and gender are not synonymous.

"Dr Margaret McCartney of the School of Medicine at St Andrews, said: "There are many instances of sex and gender being confused by the research community and society more broadly. Unless we identify and count categories correctly, we will end up with errors which serves all populations poorly."

All so obvious to us on Feminism Chat, but good to see push back
on this sex/gender mixup from the research community.

OP posts:
ArabellaScott · 04/04/2021 08:35

This whole thread has been about how GPs are not informed of the differences.

R0wantrees · 04/04/2021 08:38

Its always unfortunate when late night visitors fail to read a thread and consider the actual details of discussion before posting.

Roystonv · 04/04/2021 08:48

HamsterV2 what a reassuring and sensible post. I do not understand why people would put their health at risk by claiming a different sex for medical purposes and that health professionals would buy into the madness. It is just common sense that natal sex is maintained. The ability for patients to re-register as their chosen gender is unbelievable being dangerous, short sighted and misleading (if not a lie).

IDontOnlyLikeJazzFunk · 04/04/2021 09:01

@Roystonv

HamsterV2 what a reassuring and sensible post. I do not understand why people would put their health at risk by claiming a different sex for medical purposes and that health professionals would buy into the madness. It is just common sense that natal sex is maintained. The ability for patients to re-register as their chosen gender is unbelievable being dangerous, short sighted and misleading (if not a lie).
Absolutely. Some GPs, where they have been forced to change a patients details completely to remove references to their birth sex, have resorted to using a secret sex marker because it is such essential information.

Personally, with GPs being so overloaded I think that deliberately adding complication and huge potential for error is unwise Hmm

R0wantrees · 04/04/2021 09:20

The ability for patients to re-register as their chosen gender is unbelievable being dangerous, short sighted and misleading (if not a lie).

As Anne Harper-Wright's 2018 investigation found. The NHS has likely erroneously assigned all patients a gender identity and removed sex data despite having recognised the serious risk as, "“The term ‘Gender’ is now considered too ambiguous to be desirable or safe”

(extract)
Q: So, how’s this exemplary system of recording gender separately from sex working in NHS practice?
A: Disastrously
At this point I want to mention that I initially started researching this subject in an attempt to prove that any attempt to overwrite sex with gender is not just ill-advised, but actually dangerous when applied in a medical setting. And everything I discovered revealed that, yes, the NHS understood this perfectly, and had designed systems and safety guidance to accommodate the identities of the few without jeopardising the health of us all. Phew, right? Our medical system accepts the immutability of our sex, and it isn’t about to endanger us by pretending otherwise. After all, the NHS sex and gender design guidance in 2009 was uncompromising and left little room for error.
Having ascertained what the sex fields and gender fields are in our medical records, and having read the NHS documents determining how the data should be entered and used, I was confident that my own personal medical record would reflect the safety guidance. And perhaps look something like the linked examples above:
e.g. Sex = Female, Gender = unknown.
I submitted my Subject Access Request to my local hospital to look at my own medical record data.
And what I found was this.
My personal medical record sex field is BLANK. Unpopulated.
In a disturbing turn of events, the hospital that cared for me in pregnancy and childbirth, twice, doesn’t know what physical sex I am.

It is sure, however, that I have a ladybrain, though. Because there it is on my medical record. I have definitely never discussed my inner femininity with any doctor that I recall. I don’t remember asking that my adherence to stereotypes, or ladybrain mentality be captured on my medical record. Nevertheless, here it is, my female ‘gender identity’ that I didn’t know I had

So, in a not fun twist to the tale ending, and despite everything the NHS has put in place to prevent this exact situation from happening, this is how things have ended up anyway.
I’ve been allocated an identity, a ‘gender’ — one that I haven’t actually agreed with I may add — and my sex has vanished.
Is your medical record like mine? Sex erased, gender identity assigned instead?
The only way to find out is to submit your own subject access request as I did. But my prediction is that you’ll find something similar on your own record. You may well have been allocated a ladybrain or a manbrain on your medical record, and your biological sex may be missing.
Given the explicit directions and warnings of possible catastrophes by the architects of the NHS data system, it is astounding to learn those clear directions have gone unheeded." (continues)
medium.com/@anneharperwright/sex-gender-the-nhs-bb86b0c3ebb

Alex2112 · 04/04/2021 09:21

@ArabellaScott

Flowers to you, Alex, and all intersex people affected by this and

Flowers to the women impacted and worried by it and

Flowers to you, Hamster, and all the trans people let down by it.

This gender bullshit is helping nobody - why are we pandering to it?

Thanks @ArabellaScott..

sadly we are all being forced to pander to the madness. Everyone knows the facts, and society must ensure that the basic premise of women's rights are protected.

Women's right to private spaces away from biological men
Women's right to female only sports away from biological men.

We all accept that "trans women" have the same human rights as all of us, but that does not allow them the right to undermine intersex people, (by using intersex terminology to misinform) nor women's rights to female only sports and private spaces.

ALL have equal rights.
NHS is there for all, and medical professionals must protect vulnerable kids from "trans ideology". Thankfully the UK Gov. is legislating to stop puberty blockers being misused.

I fear that many kids have already been harmed and the NHS (via the tax payer) will be paying £millions out in compensation for years to come.

R0wantrees · 04/04/2021 09:21

(see above)

Stop mixing up sex and gender GPs told
R0wantrees · 04/04/2021 09:23

NHS recognised the risks and went ahead.

Stop mixing up sex and gender GPs told
Stop mixing up sex and gender GPs told
Stop mixing up sex and gender GPs told
highame · 04/04/2021 09:34

A really great thread to read. Thank you all of you for intelligent, informative, constructive posts. Flowers [bunnysmile]

highame · 04/04/2021 09:35

Damn should have been Easter Smile

ArabellaScott · 04/04/2021 09:57

I fear that many kids have already been harmed and the NHS (via the tax payer) will be paying £millions out in compensation for years to come.

Exactly this. I'm both enraged that the NHS has fallen for this garbled, unscientific ideology, and worried for those it has harmed. Also worried that this will further undermine our precious health service. What a mess.

R0wantrees · 04/04/2021 10:19

Exactly this. I'm both enraged that the NHS has fallen for this garbled, unscientific ideology, and worried for those it has harmed. Also worried that this will further undermine our precious health service. What a mess.

Anne Harper-Wright
(extract)
The birth of Legal Gender; the death of Legal Sex. The Gender Recognition Act.
In 2004, a piece of legislation called the Gender Recognition Act quietly became law. The primary purpose of the act was ostensibly to allow approximately 5000 mostly biologically male transsexuals, via a tightly controlled and medically certificated approval process, to be treated as if they were female so that they could marry another man. In the era when same sex marriage was prohibited, there was a greater appetite for creating an apparent ‘heterosexual’ marriage from a same sex relationship, than there was to legalise same sex marriage. A ‘legal fiction’ was approved. Birth certificates were altered. Biologically male became legally female. ‘Gender’ became legally recognised, and, it was agreed, gender trumps sex.
The Act in essence changed the definition of male and female from a biological definition to a psychological one.
This set in motion the re-categorisation of an entire society into two psychological gender groups instead of by the sexes.
Gender gradually REPLACED sex. For all of us. People started to be sorted by purported ‘psychology’, not biology.
The votes for the Gender Recognition bill were split down party lines. A Labour Government whip resulted in 289 labour votes for the bill. Most conservative MPs however, voted against the passing of this bill that enabled the concept of ‘gender’ to supersede sex. A conservative MP, Andrew Lansley, however, rebelled and voted aye.
Andrew Lansley was in no doubt of the distinction between sex and gender. He voted for gender to legally outrank and overwrite sex.
Six years later in 2010 Andrew Lansley rose to the role of Health Secretary within the coalition government.
(continues)

The claim: Elimination of Mixed Sex wards.
In 2010, to great fanfare, Health Secretary Andrew Lansley of the Conservative party announced the Coalition Government’s laudable commitment to place all NHS hospital patients in single-sex wards — with any mixed sex breaches made public and financial penalties imposed.
“It should be more than an expectation, it should be a requirement that patients who are admitted should be admitted to single-sex accommodation,” the Health Secretary told BBC Radio 4’s PM programme.
“Patients should be in single-sex accommodation, meaning that all of their period that they are admitted they should be in a bed or a bay which only consists of people of the same sex.
“And they should be able to come and go, for example to all their washing and toilet facilities, without having to pass through a part of the ward or another ward where there might be people of a different sex… so to that extent they would have the kind of privacy and dignity people have a right to expect.”
And he added:
“Patients should not suffer the indignity of being cared for in mixed-sex accommodation. I am determined to put an end to this practice, where it is not clinically justified.”
Categorical statements such as these from Lansley were uttered in the same year that a new Act; the Equality Act 2010, committed to continuing to protect biological SEX based rights, with sex being one of 9 protected characteristics that would be monitored to stop discrimination. ‘Gender reassignment’ was one of the nine protected characteristics, and biological sex was another, protected in its own right. The two characteristics are differentiated and distinct in law.
So when the Government announced the characteristic for NHS ward segregation would be ‘sex’ that was an unambiguous statement relating to a specific protected characteristic. Biological sex is a tangible, physical reality. NHS Wards were promised to be explicitly single sex, not single gender. Bodily dignity and privacy for the biological sexes, not segregation by invisible personality type. The government’s commitment to respecting the privacy and dignity of the sexes, they reassured us, still remained unassailable.
Mr Lansley’s choice of the word SEX rather than gender was very deliberate.
Sex and gender are not the same thing, after all.
The truth: “The policy commitment relates to gender, not sex”.
Despite what the public were told, the policy was always explicitly based upon segregating by ‘gender’ and not sex, right from its inception.
NHS documents and records dated from 2010 show that before the policy was implemented, whilst still in its design stages, the specifications always related to gender, not sex. And yet the name of the policy, and all references to it to the general public were explicitly instructed to be sex, not gender. The opposite of the truth."(continues)

The deliberate use of the word SEX to name the policy, whilst using GENDER to facilitate it, was a Department of Health mandate from Andrew Lansley.
The NHS Information Standards Team who were tasked with creating the infrastructure to execute monitoring and reporting on breaches of this policy understood their task. To utilise patient data relating to gender, not sex. To segregate wards by assumed or self-declared ‘gender’, not sex. Discussions at that time between the NHS team and the DOH left no doubt; what was being created was a standard that measured breaches in mixed-gender, not mixed sex wards. Mixing people of differently sexed bodies was acceptable, whilst ‘psyches’ were separated.
The NHS team told the Department of Health that the name of this policy was misleading. They insisted it should truthfully be called “Eliminating Mixed Gender Accommodation’. A source within the NHS confirmed that they fully understood that this policy related to gender, but that the DOH was explicit in its directive:
Segregate wards by gender. But definitely tell people it is by sex. “To ensure a better public understanding”. (continues)

medium.com/@anneharperwright/sex-gender-the-nhs-1e8f4e6363a6

Alex2112 · 04/04/2021 10:34

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

R0wantrees · 04/04/2021 11:57

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. We've removed this one as it quotes a previously deleted post.

R0wantrees · 04/04/2021 12:16

A trans woman would have normal levels (ish) of oestrogen. Their blood chemistry is not the same as a castrated male.

Normal oestrogen levels are determined by sex and age of a patient.
There are many reasons why male patients may have higher than normal range oestrogen in their blood, some of which are indicative of serious health issues.
www.healthline.com/health/estrogen-in-men#high-estrogen

There are many circumstances when patients take a drug/s which temporarily elevates/depresses a blood marker be that prescribed or purchased.
This is why HCPs require age, sex, current medication details in order to diagnose and treat patients safely.

R0wantrees · 04/04/2021 12:29

reposting my comment from 11:57:35:

The bigger picture concerns are that NHS Safeguarding and Child Protection frameworks have been compromised in multiple areas on the basis of pressure from politicians, TRA lobby groups and idealogues. This has potentially catastrophic impacts for the welfare of all patients.

ErrolTheDragon · 04/04/2021 12:35

I'm not sure what guideline Alex broke - but I hope the mods are sensitive of 'context' when assessing what a person with a VSD has to say (not sure what your preferred terminology is, Alex).

Alex2112 · 04/04/2021 13:27

@ErrolTheDragon

I'm not sure what guideline Alex broke - but I hope the mods are sensitive of 'context' when assessing what a person with a VSD has to say (not sure what your preferred terminology is, Alex).
Thanks @ErrolTheDragon -

I have been advised on previous post had used term of delusion, ...so I accept that may offend some.

I live as male, but any terminology is fine, "intersex" is fairly ok... words and terminology cannot offend anyone!

R0wantrees · 04/04/2021 13:33

I have been advised on previous post had used term of delusion, ...so I accept that may offend some.

The context of the thread being the potential serious harms to patients when gender and sex is conflated in NHS healthcare. That some patients might believe they had actually changed sex had been referred to additionally this was identified as a significant risk in the NHS 2009 assessment of data architecture.

Delusions are beliefs that are demonstrably not true.

ListeningQuietly · 04/04/2021 14:00

So Alex very lucidly explaining the reality of their life
is delusion?
Really?

R0wantrees · 04/04/2021 14:22

So Alex very lucidly explaining the reality of their life
is delusion?

Not at all. I am at a loss as to how you might conclude that.
The context that I have provided is that which Alex's deleted post was part of.

Alex2112 · 04/04/2021 18:30

@R0wantrees

So Alex very lucidly explaining the reality of their life is delusion?

Not at all. I am at a loss as to how you might conclude that.
The context that I have provided is that which Alex's deleted post was part of.

the deletion was because I suggested that is was "delusional" to believe biological sex change is possible. We all know that biological sex change is impossible I would feel it is correct use of the term delusion, to state that someone who believes in the impossible, is delusional. I understand that use of such a term may offend some people. I will not be using in future posts. I will continue to state simple facts.
R0wantrees · 04/04/2021 18:33

I would feel it is correct use of the term delusion, to state that someone who believes in the impossible, is delusional.

It is indeed.
Delusions are beliefs that are demonstrably not true.

Alex2112 · 04/04/2021 18:59

@R0wantrees

I would feel it is correct use of the term delusion, to state that someone who believes in the impossible, is delusional.

It is indeed.
Delusions are beliefs that are demonstrably not true.

Thanks @R0wantrees... but I have, in this case accepted that such use of the term can offend, so will be more wary in my explanations.

Although facts are facts from Nome to Rome, we find that some try to twist perception... but right minded people know that reality won't budge.

Anovaneway · 04/04/2021 19:01

ALL have equal rights.

If (medically transitioned) trans people can’t use the spaces for the sex they identify as like other people can then they don’t have equal rights.

Swipe left for the next trending thread