Non binary

[Nellodee]

I’ve been frustrated by non binary for a while. If non binary exists, then there wasn’t a binary to begin with.

Then I thought, this is because I was conflating gender and sex. It annoyed me that people were opting out of the binary, because I saw it as an assumption that everyone else opted in. However, if it relates to gender rather than sex, then I can’t really argue that gender is non binary. I agree with it.

More than that, I think women are non binary. Men are non binary. Transwomen are non binary. Transmen are non binary. Non binary is the only sensible description of gender.

Nobody is purely a female gender. Nobody is purely a male gender. The only sensible gender is non binary.

This means words like woman and man are useless to describe gender. You could be womanly or manly, but you could never fall entirely at either end of the spectrum. You can never be entirely a woman or a man on that spectrum, only somewhere in the non binary gender bread middle.

And if this is the case, and we are all, every one of us, gender non binary, and the words man and woman represent the extremes of this scale and don’t actually refer to any real people at all, then can we not just bloody use them to mean sex again?

I know this isn’t about logic, but have I made a logical flaw?

I am so tired and bored of the endless navel gazing and defining and labelling associated with sexuality and gender.

Wear what you want to wear, fuck who you want to fuck (with consent obvs), identify however you want to, I literally do not give two shiny fucks about it. The endless bleating about it is all so fucking tedious.

Ahhhh that felt goooooodddd.

Non-Binary, like all gender and gender-indentity nonsense, is total BS. There are only two sexes and gender is nothing but a collection of stereotypes we really need to do away with.

@Toomie

Rebecca Reilly-Cooper explores your non-binary question in some detail in this glorious essay:

aeon.co/essays/the-idea-that-gender-is-a-spectrum-is-a-new-gender-prison

Reading this essay (via a link on this board a couple of years ago) was a major lightbulb moment for me. I can't see how anyone could logically argue against this. Sadly, as you say, gender identity ideology ain't big on logic

Wow, what a fantastic article.

And here we have an irony about some people insisting that they and a handful of their fellow gender revolutionaries are non-binary: in doing so, they create a false binary between those who conform to the gender norms associated with their sex, and those who do not. In reality, everybody is non-binary. We all actively participate in some gender norms, passively acquiesce with others, and positively rail against others still. So to call oneself non-binary is in fact to create a new false binary.

This reminds me of something I was reading the other day about desisting rates of infants who express gender dysphoria. Apparently between 60-90% of them stop identifying as the opposite sex by puberty. The caveat was made however that "some of those who desist may only be doing so due to societal pressure to conform to their birth gender".

And I was like "D'UH! Why prey tell do you think ANYONE conforms to their birth gender, to whatever extent they do?!" Particularly women, when society structurally disadvantages them in doing so.

This is the huge mistake that was made by the health profession and media in framing the issue. I have no problem with the idea that gender dysphoria is a thing, that there is a small minority of people whose distress in coming to terms with their physical sex is unusually acute and requires support, even in extreme and persistent cases SRS. But somewhere along the way it was assumed that everybody ELSE - ie. us, the great mass of ordinary "cis" people - are going about our lives performing traditional gender roles because that's exactly what our deepest sense of self wants to do and we feel no tension or incongruity with our own truth in doing so whatsoever.

Of course nobody ever thought to check with us first.

I just don't get how we got from women can do anything feminism to here. There must be loads of people with whiplash.

I've been thinking about this for a while.

Non binary is a gender, not a sex.

Gender is not binary.

So how can you have a gender identity opting out of a binary gender which does not exist in the first place.

Makes. No. Sense.

They all (when loosing the debate smile ) summarise by saying similar to 'but gendered expectations/sterotypes are so strong and ingrained that there is no hope of getting rid of them altogether, and being able to move between and opt out of solidified gender groups is a sort of compromise when getting rid of them is unrealistic.' It's so...short sighted.

I've seen this argument. They are suggesting that stereotypes are so ingrained in society that we can't possibly change them and it's easier to convince people that:

• biological sex doesn't exist, or is irrelevant in most circumstances
• people can change sex
• men are women if they say they are.

But a quick look at the history of the last 100 years or so and how women's lives have changed in that time shows just how much the gendered expectations can change.

Stonewall have 10 tip tips to validate non binary people which they promoted on non binary day 14 July 2020.
I can just see us all starting meetings with 'pals' as suggested in 3! They say non binary is not trans. Not sure if they have changed their definition too as I'm sure I read non binary was someone who didn't identify as male or female, which is ridiculous because you have to be one of the other.

Number 10 is all about validation.
www.stonewall.org.uk/about-us/news/10-ways-step-ally-non-binary-people

Pals??!!

What if you aren't friends with the people you're having the meeting with

Colossally presumptuous!

Non binary in my experience of it seems to be a nice way of expressing ones wokeness and absolute rejection of being boringly cis but without requiring you to really do anything differently

You see on that Stonewall link it tells me that gender identity is different to gender expression so I can feel like I don't identify with either gender but handily not need to change my wardrobe.

Also there is a thing called neutrois on there that sounds quite nice to be (not keen on agender that sounds a bit harsh) but unfortunately autocorrect kept changing it to neutrons so perhaps I'll not bother choosing a gender identity and just stick to female sex. I think I have managed OK til now without one.

Non binary is also a logic fail by its own standards isnt it? if gender is a spectrum with male and female gender at either pole. If everyone has to fall somewhere on the spectrum then you can’t be ‘off’ that spectrum. Or at least you’d then have to acknowledge gender critical people have a good point wouldn’t you? But I suppose it’s not very cool-sounding to say you identify as ‘middle of the road binary’ and none of this is remotely logical anyway.

The Rebecca Reilly-Cooper essay nails it.

It's worth sharing with our young feminist women who go along with the notion of gender because they are wanting to be kind/are being gaslit. It also gives the lie to the much touted argument that it's a 'generational' thing.

The essay does prove, however, that we can't explain what's so damaging about gender in short sound bites. We need an understanding of where everything comes from and a class analysis.

Which makes the conversation difficult. And makes social media the worst way to discuss these things.

[quote Syeknom]The British cycling transgender policy has some helpful definitions to clear this up...
Definitions:
Birth Gender the gender that a person is assumed to be when they are born. This is usually based on
the Sex they are assigned at birth.
Gender the social, and cultural construction of what it means to be a man or a woman, including roles,
expectations and behaviour.
Gender Identity a person’s internal, deeply felt sense of self, for example, a man, a woman, or a non-
Binary person. A person’s Gender Identity may or may not correspond with their Sex.
Non-Binary where an individual does not identify as being part of the binary gender (male or female).

Self-Identified Gender the gender that the person identifies as, opposed to that which is assigned at
birth, their ‘Birth Gender’.
Sex a person’s biological and physical characteristics, defined usually as either ‘male’ or ‘female’ and
including indeterminate Sex.

Please do let them know your thoughts! Recreational cyclists and cycling fans included.

www.britishcycling.org.uk/about/article/20210325-about-bc-news-British-Cycling-launches-consultation-on-Transgender-participation-policy-0[/quote]
I responded to this; oh what fun I had! (particularly when challenging the ‘indeterminate sex’ phrase)

I've just downloaded the policy so I can respond. My, how do you even get past those definitions? They are certainly not definitions I can relate to. Thought this might be a quick five minute job, but alas no.

Non binary is a really useful concept for girls (and boys) who want to opt out of oppressive gender norms .

It's very appealing.

The thing that is telling and troubling is the removal of breasts for non binary females.

If non binary is what it says then why body alteration for girls but not boys? Why binders?

I mean the answer is clear to me. Breasts are highly sexualised in our society, fetishised even. They're usually the trigger, when they start growing, for a big change in behaviour towards girls, from both men and women. And for many girls it's a change they don't like. You move from child to sex object in a flash. It's unsettling and unpleasant.

So I totally understand why lots of girls don't like their breasts, it was the same when I was at school, just different methods of trying to hide them.

The fact that a chest with no breasts is default is also telling. Male as default.

The lack of interest in/ engagement with these points, from women who have been there, seen it, done it, is par for the course. What do middle aged women know about anything?