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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Is using TRA rude and dismissive (a bit like how the word T**F) is used?

142 replies

dyslek · 02/04/2021 17:55

I was wondering if using the term TRA to describe people is unhelpful. Does it entrench the idea that there are only two positions, and that we are not nuanced?
Obviously its not the most important point in this debate but it just struck me that maybe its not helpful and plays in to their hands.

OP posts:
Justhadathought · 04/04/2021 21:42

Do trans women need the presence of other women to validate their identities? And I wonder if the same is true of trans men. Do they need the company of other men to feel validated

Being a woman is not an identity. It is just a fact of life on earth. Identity hinges more on associations and affinities...which in time shift and change.

NiceGerbil · 04/04/2021 21:50

@Justhadathought

Almost impossible to live with people perceiving them to be a particular sex/gender

Sex and gender are not the exact same thing. This is the problem.

Gender is a set of expectations around sex role and behaviour - which one may, or may not, conform to; or only conform to in small degrees and so on....

Gender ideology is the problem.

And more than this.

People have differences that just are.

The problem is the assumptions and judgements that are made because of this differences.

EG people with disabilities. If you use a wheelchair, or are blind, or have a severe speech impediment. That can't be hidden with neutral clothes etc. And why should it be? The problem is not people noticing the disability, it's how individuals and society react to it. It's about the world being designed for the 'norm' meaning people who don't fit have extra challenges. (Of course this applies to women as well - invisible women).

The plan sounds very much like the 'i don't see colour' thing. Not seeing differences/ somehow erasing them seems like a poor idea.

And I somehow suspect that 'gender neutral' ends up being (in the UK) average male. That's what happens at the moment. If no one can 'see' sex then how does product design etc work? Safety stuff- look what happened with cars.

NiceGerbil · 04/04/2021 21:52

@Cattenberg

Do trans women need the presence of other women to validate their identities? And I wonder if the same is true of trans men. Do they need the company of other men to feel validated?
I think men need this more than women. All the male bonding over football etc. I think in a way they do reinforce/ validate their identities in the context of our society.
jellyfrizz · 04/04/2021 22:01

while at the same time accepting that our current society and culture make it very, very difficult to be radically gender non-confirming, and therefore some people find it almost impossible to live with people perceiving them to be a particular sex/gender.

Society makes it difficult to be many things. Wouldn’t it be better to work on accepting differences and treating people better generally than to pretend there are differences?

jellyfrizz · 04/04/2021 22:52

*aren’t

Helen8220 · 04/04/2021 23:10

On this there should have been accord between feminists who think sex roles are a sack of shit, usually because they themselves have struggled against them, and trans people who want to step outside their sex roles. It would have been great. But look what has happened.

I know, that’s what I find so sad and frustrating about the whole situation, and the reason I’m here.

This bit I am less sure about. How will non gendered clothes work when they need to fit the different bodies of the different sexes? How will the labelling work etc, in practical terms? What about maternity clothes, how will they be labelled?

I suppose to some extent it depends what kind of clothes, and particularly what sort of fit, you prefer, and obviously people come in all sorts of shapes and sizes anyway regardless of sex. There might well still be some clothes designed to fit specifically typical female or male body shapes, but I’m not convinced we need two completely separate sizing systems. And obviously the stark differences in colours, styles, fabrics and designs between clothes aimed at men and women are completely unnecessary.

I also assume it's meant that there would still be loads of interesting clothes to choose from, not that everyone would wear the same?

Absolutely (although having some slight commie tendencies I can also see the attraction of standard-issue overalls for everyone!)

On the last part, I'm not sure how it will work. It's usually pretty obvious who is male and who is female. I'm not sure why or how this would become not known? And while people don't go around wondering about genitals grin the fact is that sexuality exists. An obvious challenge would be porn. I can't see most men losing their preferences for certain types of bodies/ genitals in what they consume. What's your view on that?

I think you’re underestimating how much of the way we instantly ‘clock’ another person’s (assumed) sex is through their hairstyle and clothes (particularly in winter when people are more covered up, and also in the case of very overweight people). I’ve met a fair few butch women where I’ve found myself surreptitiously glancing at their chest to try and check I’d guessed their sex correctly. I’m not saying you wouldn’t be able to work it out in quite a few cases (particularly when you hear people speak), but I think we would stop sorting people so immediately into one of two categories.

On sexuality, I think many more people will be bisexual as heterosexuality gradually ceases to be the assumed norm, and this is born out by the increasing numbers of young people identifying as bi over time (I think in the last census there was a large increase in the 18 to 25 age group?). Also I’ve heard some interesting stats about the surprisingly large number of men who identify as straight yet have had sex with other men - even now there’s a big stigma around it.

I think society has gone backwards hasn't it? In terms of the level of flexibility. It was the mid 90s. Before that you had all sorts of exciting stuff going on. Then BAM oasis, lads mags, and the clothes suddenly went really fucking boring. I assume it was backlash against the previous couple of decades, pushing everyone back into gender boxes. It felt like a male driven change... What the average blokes think of all this is not really considered. I don't think they'll like it much, will they. How can that be changed.

I agree things seem to have gone backwards since the 70s (or so my mother tells me). I put it largely down to capitalism and the drive the find new ways to market things.

In the end if I shave all my hair off and wear 'men's' clothes (which I can't cos I'm a short woman) I'll still be easily recognised as a woman. Because the clothes hair etc is a really small part of it.

Again, while this may be true of a proportion of women, I have a different view of how much difference it would make, particularly in relation to those of us with less traditionally ‘feminine’ body shapes and facial features.

NiceGerbil · 04/04/2021 23:54

The sexuality thing is probably another thread and it's a really interesting topic. What would sexuality look like in a world without enforced/ strongly encouraged (through overt or subtle means) heteronormativity. And without male dominance. We can't know can we but yes I also suspect bisexuality would be more common and also homosexuality with no social/ religious etc stigma.

NiceGerbil · 05/04/2021 00:13

On the visual cues to sex thing. I always talk about this because it was really eye opening for me.

Big brother a few years ago had a guy who was a drag queen. He didn't put on his drag stuff for a few weeks though- so they all got to know him pretty well.

Then he said I'm going to get my gear on and went off and got in his dress, very high heels, something to replicate boobs pushed up, long varnished nails, long blonde 'big' hair, full makeup.

He was a good looking young man and when he came out all legs and hair and heels and eyelashes everyone said wow.

Then the interesting bit. The men in the house who had got to know him were really uncomfortable. What they said etc- all friendly. Made it clear that the 'sexy lady' attire etc was telling them one thing but they knew it was a man. It was confusing and unsettling for them. They didn't like it

And it made me think. With society as it is, and lots of men seeing women they don't know, too often as 2D 'types'. (MILF, old dear, sexy lady, jailbait, ballbreaker etc). Are the trappings much more to them? Do they find it difficult to see a person? Are they even looking?

And so I think maybe there's a big gap in this between men and women which might go some way to explaining why for transwomen the clothes/ makeup etc are important as they clearly signal woman (even if they don't personally want to dress that way) but women are saying ??? of course we can tell who is male and female.

Floisme · 05/04/2021 00:19

although having some slight commie tendencies I can also see the attraction of standard-issue overalls for everyone!)
Wait. What?
I admit I haven't read all your posts but The fuck?
Wear whatever the hell you like but kindly leave the rest of us out of your totalitarian fantasies.

NiceGerbil · 05/04/2021 00:54

I think it was a joke floisme.

I'm interested in Helen's posts tbh

Floisme · 05/04/2021 01:04

Fair enough. Hopefully the preceding paragraph was a joke too. I'll leave you to it.

Helen8220 · 05/04/2021 02:27

I think it was a joke floisme. I'm interested in Helen's posts tbh

Thank you, I appreciate that. I was joking (mostly - I do have some idealistic commie leanings but I realise it hasn’t worked out that well in the real world)

NiceGerbil · 05/04/2021 02:29

I'd be interested in your thoughts on the 0013 post if you're still up Helen

Helen8220 · 05/04/2021 02:49

On the visual cues to sex thing. I always talk about this because it was really eye opening for me.

Big brother a few years ago had a guy who was a drag queen. He didn't put on his drag stuff for a few weeks though- so they all got to know him pretty well.

Then he said I'm going to get my gear on and went off and got in his dress, very high heels, something to replicate boobs pushed up, long varnished nails, long blonde 'big' hair, full makeup.

He was a good looking young man and when he came out all legs and hair and heels and eyelashes everyone said wow.

Then the interesting bit. The men in the house who had got to know him were really uncomfortable. What they said etc- all friendly. Made it clear that the 'sexy lady' attire etc was telling them one thing but they knew it was a man. It was confusing and unsettling for them. They didn't like it

Was that the series with Courtney Act/Shane Jenek? If so, i found that fascinating too, particularly as (as far as I remember) the whole series was based around a gender focus. I really rate Courtney/Shane generally, I think s/he talks a lot of sense. Although now I think about it you may be talking about a different series as I thought Courtney wore drag from the outset. Anyway, the thing I found fascinating was how conflicted one of the guys in particular seemed to be (a rather blokey bloke off love island I think) - they got on really well as friends, and when Shane was being Courtney the other guy basically admitted once or twice (while drunk) that he was pretty attracted to her, but it clearly really confused him.

And it made me think. With society as it is, and lots of men seeing women they don't know, too often as 2D 'types'. (MILF, old dear, sexy lady, jailbait, ballbreaker etc). Are the trappings much more to them? Do they find it difficult to see a person? Are they even looking?

And so I think maybe there's a big gap in this between men and women which might go some way to explaining why for transwomen the clothes/ makeup etc are important as they clearly signal woman (even if they don't personally want to dress that way) but women are saying ??? of course we can tell who is male and female.

It’s an interesting line of thought, though on my own personal experience I’m not sure I agree. To me, in terms of attraction to others, the ‘trappings’ are a big part of it I think - I’m attracted to a person as a whole package and that includes their cloths, hair, make-up (or lack thereof), voice, the way they move. And part of the reason I find the emphasis on the importance of biological sex in the context of sexual attraction hard to understand is that I’ve always found people being non-gender-conforming incredibly attractive, and there have definitely been people I’ve massively fancied who I wasn’t initially sure (ie when I first fancied them) if they were ‘biologically’ male or female. I know this isn’t probably how the majority of people feel, but I don’t think I’m anywhere near alone in this.

Helen8220 · 05/04/2021 02:51

Sorry, I realise this is all a bit of a diversion, but perhaps allowable on the basis that - setting terms like ‘TRA’ and ‘t**f’ aside - it shows people on opposite sides of this debate can have a polite and interesting discussion.....

NiceGerbil · 05/04/2021 03:13

Yes I think that was the person- Courtney/ Shane. I might Google and check the clip may be available (late and not going to search!) but yes it was really interesting how the blokes reacted. Really deeply uncomfy.

With women in society being much more sexualised, I think maybe those 'cues' embed more? And pretty much everything is for the het male gaze and it's so ubiquitous they don't realise. When I was commuting into London I used to look around and think. What if all these images of women were replaced with ones of men. Not David Beckham or the diet Coke thing. But men who are photographed like women. Passive, mainly. Like in some of the stuff for gay men (I found a pretty hard core magazine on the tube on the way home after a night out in the 90s... I had never seen pics of men looking... Dunno. Coy? Submissive? Flirty... Looking demurely up at the camera while toying with underwear type thing).

Anyway. What if all the images of women were replaced with ones of men not looking powerful but vulnerable etc. I know for a fact it would feel like the pics were everywhere and most men would feel really very uncomfortable.

Meanwhile, as a het woman. Most men wear boring clothes. Suits shirts jeans. Not much flesh on show. Not clingy. Why? Because the most important thing about them is not their body. Or so we're told. It's their personality, how funny they are. How rich they are (FFS). So the presentation is not important really. Clean, smart, job done.

(Not my type but anyway).

NiceGerbil · 05/04/2021 03:21

'To me, in terms of attraction to others, the ‘trappings’ are a big part of it I think - I’m attracted to a person as a whole package and that includes their cloths, hair, make-up (or lack thereof), voice, the way they move. And part of the reason I find the emphasis on the importance of biological sex in the context of sexual attraction hard to understand is that I’ve always found people being non-gender-conforming incredibly attractive, and there have definitely been people I’ve massively fancied who I wasn’t initially sure (ie when I first fancied them) if they were ‘biologically’ male or female. I know this isn’t probably how the majority of people feel, but I don’t think I’m anywhere near alone in this.'

And that's all about personal taste isn't it.

The trappings have never been important really to me. I'm not interested in show. I like tbh. Handsome men who are tall and have an edge of non conformity. A brain. Who are interesting. But the tall handsome bit is important and you can't have those qualities if you don't, iyswim.

I don't really care what clothes/ shoes/ hair they have. Goth/ boring suit/ whatever.

Men are taught to find women who are presented in a certain way attractive.

Women are taught that they should look past the physical (haha).

And all of this is very specific to our culture, at this point in time. It's superficial.

DaisiesandButtercups · 05/04/2021 09:08

Regarding men looking demure and vulnerable in advertising, there is a film on Netflix at the moment “I am not an easy man” which explores these ideas. I really enjoyed it. Watched it with a teenage daughter at her request and we found it gave us lots to think about and talk about.

I think that there is so much in that idea Nicegerbil. We are bombarded with imagery 24/7 from birth all from the point of view of male as subject and female as object.

I really recommend the film “I am not an easy man”, it is a comedy and we found it pretty funny considering the deeper point it makes.

flyingfoxkins · 05/04/2021 09:11

@NiceGerbil - just a very small thought to add to your musings. I always thought that the men you see in the undies section of catalogues, mainly look really stiff and uncomfortable, often gazing impenetrably into the distance, whereas women, who are used to "the male gaze" look much more relaxed. It would be interesting to see men cavorting happily in silk boxers and looking a bit "come hither". Sorry if I have added to the derailing of the thread.

jellyfrizz · 05/04/2021 11:27

@Helen8220

Sorry, I realise this is all a bit of a diversion, but perhaps allowable on the basis that - setting terms like ‘TRA’ and ‘t**f’ aside - it shows people on opposite sides of this debate can have a polite and interesting discussion.....
I think the issue is that many people on the 'same' side come at this from very different angles.

Some believe gender norms are harmful and that being trans is a way of subverting those norms.

There are also many who believe that gender norms occur because males and females are fundamentally different physically and psychologically (e.g. that females are biologically programmed to be homemakers and carers because they can have babies) and that trans people are born with a mismatching brain and body.

On a feminist chat board there is very likely to be a lot to agree with people holding the first view, very little with the second.

Helen8220 · 06/04/2021 01:12

Completely agree jellyfrizz - very good point

Helen8220 · 06/04/2021 01:17

With women in society being much more sexualised, I think maybe those 'cues' embed more? And pretty much everything is for the het male gaze and it's so ubiquitous they don't realise. When I was commuting into London I used to look around and think. What if all these images of women were replaced with ones of men. Not David Beckham or the diet Coke thing. But men who are photographed like women. Passive, mainly. Like in some of the stuff for gay men (I found a pretty hard core magazine on the tube on the way home after a night out in the 90s... I had never seen pics of men looking... Dunno. Coy? Submissive? Flirty... Looking demurely up at the camera while toying with underwear type thing). Anyway. What if all the images of women were replaced with ones of men not looking powerful but vulnerable etc. I know for a fact it would feel like the pics were everywhere and most men would feel really very uncomfortable.

That’s a really interesting point, and I wonder about this sort of thing quite a lot too.

Meanwhile, as a het woman. Most men wear boring clothes. Suits shirts jeans. Not much flesh on show. Not clingy. Why? Because the most important thing about them is not their body. Or so we're told. It's their personality, how funny they are. How rich they are (FFS). So the presentation is not important really. Clean, smart, job done. (Not my type but anyway).

Absolutely. And it’s so universal and we’re all so completely used to it we don’t really question it until we consciously start thinking about it.

Helen8220 · 06/04/2021 01:20

Women are taught that they should look past the physical (haha).

Although there are some areas where men have it equally rough - in particular, the attitudes of many women towards short men seem to me very similar to how certain (/many) men can be about overweight women.

NiceGerbil · 06/04/2021 01:24

Flyingfox- yes. And it really is everywhere.

The majority of shop mannequins. When you're allowed back into clothes shops have a look

The male ones stand normally.
The female ones are often totally nuts. Feet pointing in and arms in all sorts of bizarre contortions. Head is often weirdly positioned as well.

I embarrass my kids by trying to adopt the poses of the female dummies Grin

But I never used to even notice. Not at all. All this stuff, mostly we don't even notice it, it's so ubiquitous. But it's constant drip drip.

When you notice looking around becomes really annoying and I'm pretty annoyed a lot ! But you can't unsee it, because it's here there and everywhere.

NiceGerbil · 06/04/2021 01:32

That's true Helen and I know eating disorders in boys etc are on the rise. That's just really awful. I don't want boys to end up in the same boat as girls. I want to hit reverse so both sexes are happier.

Another random thought (sorry I have a lot).

Yes boys feel more pressure BUT

in the media we consume- especially films from the usa- all sorts of blokes are presented. Ones who are smaller, ones who are geeky, ones who are overweight. Ones with no social skills. Etc etc. And the women and girls? Less of them. Still generally good looking. Often the romantic interest of the main bloke

Often she's not interested. Almost always she's not interested. And what happens? He pines. He presses. Maybe he stalks her a bit. Maybe he does some pretty horrible things to her. And then, she changes her mind. And falls into the arms of the geeky/ boring/ unpleasant/ short/ etc chap.

I know it's an aside but it's a terrible message and one that I've read (from an ex incel) really feeds into the 'owed a beautiful woman' view.