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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

The Times Law section Thursday 1st April. Trans judge wants a more diverse judiciary

101 replies

happydappy2 · 01/04/2021 15:39

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/victoria-mccloud-a-transgender-judge-wants-a-more-diverse-judiciary-jc7rqhbc9

The comments are interesting...

OP posts:
Mugginyouleftrightandcentre · 03/04/2021 11:51

Funny, I 100% knew that the trans judge referred to in the thread title wasn't going to be a transman before I even opened the thread.

IDontOnlyLikeJazzFunk · 03/04/2021 11:52

In specific cases like the one I have mentioned above, a common reaction from certain quarters is that there are always extreme examples of bad people doing bad things.

This is absolutely true but what sort of society do we live in if, instead of trying to prevent bad things happening, we create rules that actually facilitate them?

R0wantrees · 03/04/2021 12:06

Given that a GRC appears to (unlawfully) give male people access to female single sex spaces like prisons (as confirmed in court by the lawyer representing the Ministry of Justice) this seems imprudent.

I believe that the justification given by Karen Jones for the horrific attempted rape and attack on a woman that Karen carried out was that Karen wanted to go back to prison so Karen could obtain reassignment surgery and apply for a GRC.

Jones' successful appeal against the Home Office which enabled transfer to the female prison estate is shocking in that there was no apparent discussion or assessment of impact on women prisoners or staff except the following evidence from an expert in gender dysphoria, Dr James Barrett of the Gender Identity Clinic, Charing Cross Hospital. Barrett had known the Claimant for many years and explained why living in role in female accommodation was, in his opinion required:

(extract)
"it will become clear that she is so widely accepted as female in that unit that location in the main prison will follow. I think that such acceptance will pretty generally apply in the main prison, also, although there will probably always be a small number of prisoners who will choose to make an issue of the matter because they are the sort of women who enjoy conflict. If this patient is able to cope with protracted close proximity women of that sort I would judge her able to cope with the less prolonged, more avoidable, travails of the civilian world."

www.bailii.org/cgi-bin/format.cgi?doc=/ew/cases/EWHC/Admin/2009/2220.html

Thecatonthemat · 03/04/2021 17:02

Just been on the webinar by WHR specifically about what is happening in women’s prisons in Canada and Western Australia . Deeply deeply shocking and we should be taking action in any way we can to stop these men in womens prisons policies in the UK. Yes it can and does get worse.

IDontOnlyLikeJazzFunk · 03/04/2021 17:31

wow R0 and Cat - this whole strand of prisons/concealing identity is very worrying. I hope that some progress on the prisons side will be made in event of a positive ruling on the MoJ judicial review but it is so worrying that we are so far down the road of allowing people to conceal a previous identity.

It seems to make a mockery of safeguarding/DBS (still no news from Robin?)

I've found the Times list - Women of the Year 2020. 2020 was clearly a rubbish year for high achieving women - one person on the list was a fictional character and three were not born female.

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/women-of-the-year-2020-jp770mptk?region=global&ni-statuscode=acsaz-307 I can provide a share token if anyone wants to check out the pics.

Victoria McCloud
Judge
In a ruling published online in February, the High Court judge demonstrated the importance of representation, as Britain’s most senior public figure to have transitioned from male to female stood up for trans rights in a meaningful way. Hailed as a pioneer by equality campaigners, McCloud, 51, argued that the process of changing your name by deed poll needed “close attention” to ensure that trans people are not being outed against their will. She is no stranger to high-profile legal battles — she has made rulings in cases involving Donald Trump, Jeremy Corbyn and even Katie Price, and was the presiding judge when the Duchess of Sussex pursued legal action over the pictures taken of her and Archie in a Canadian park in January.

R0wantrees · 03/04/2021 19:31

Hailed as a pioneer by equality campaigners, McCloud, 51, argued that the process of changing your name by deed poll needed “close attention” to ensure that trans people are not being outed against their will.

McCloud's ruling needs close attention due to the implications for Safeguarding and Child Protection:
www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9410099/Thousands-sex-criminals-working-children-changing-names-warns-Sajid-Javid.html

thinkingaboutLangCleg · 03/04/2021 21:16

So a white middle-class male became the youngest Queen’s Bench Master of the High Court of England and Wales. Alleluia! Who could ever have predicted that.

I’m taking a wild guess that the previous youngest QBM was also a white middle-class male, and the one before, etc etc to the dawn of time ....

ANewCreation · 03/04/2021 21:59

Thecatonthemat

"The problem of name changing in relation to crimes against women and children was specifically mentioned by Sajid Javid the other evening ( responding to the latest report) it is curious that Robin and Mccloud do not see why this might not be an issue when their attention is drawn to it.
Incidentally I would have really appreciated a wife to support me in my career while childraising etc."

StellaAndCrow
Yes absolutely - McCloud had a wife to do the wifework while developing their career, and had male privilege while applying for their place at the bar. And is still with their wife - I hope that she is OK."

I made the same "cisnormative" assumption Wink

first100years.org.uk/master-victoria-mccloud-biography/

My curiosity was piqued as McCloud used the acronym GLBT (sic) in the interview. Hmm

McCloud was actually able to enter into a civil partnership in 2006 as their psychiatrist partner is also a transwoman.

Like the ability to 'disappear' names, I am extremely uncomfortable about the ability to 'disappear' sex in terms of safeguarding frameworks.

The 'sex =/≠ gender' instability at the heart of the legal position in the GRA definitely contributes to the blind spot. And I wonder if it is quite awkward for others to challenge, particularly when up against those with what could be seen to be a vested interest...

Thecatonthemat · 03/04/2021 23:27

Trying to work out whether I feel better knowing that. Marginally yes.

R0wantrees · 15/04/2021 13:35

from current relevant thread:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/a4218934-Transitioning-child-rapist-who-breached-order-spared-jail-over-prison-safety-concerns

"It’s a response to the petition about name changing from Jan 21.
Apparently it is the second version.
We understand concern about offenders attempting to hide their identity and are working with Courts and Disclosure and Barring Service to close any monitoring gaps to ensure the public is kept safe.

Read the response in full
Protecting the public from sexual and violent offenders who pose a risk of serious harm is a key priority for the Government and the police. The Government is recruiting 20,000 more police officers and creating extra prison places to ensure violent and sexual offenders spend longer behind bars.

There is no current legal process to start using a new name. But a person who has changed their name might need a ‘deed poll’ to apply for or to change official documents like a passport or driving licence. A deed poll is a legal document that proves a change of name. ‘Enrolling’ a deed poll means that you’re putting your new name on public record. You must apply to the Royal Courts of Justice to get an ‘enrolled’ deed poll using the deed poll process. It costs £36.

In 2015, the Home Office published its Use and Change of Name Guidance (www.gov.uk/government/publications/change-of-name-guidance/use-and-change-of-names) on GOV.UK. It sets out the policy to make it more difficult for people to change their identities to enable them to commit crime, and to ensure there is a consistent approach to handling applications to change names contained on official documents.

This policy aligns the various approaches to managing name changes for Home Office documents such as British passports, Home Office Travel Documents, biometric residence permits and other forms of immigration documentation.

As Minister for Safeguarding, Victoria Atkins MP has written to the Master of Rolls and the Royal Courts of Justice requesting that a Judicial Working Group should consider criminality in regard to the enrolled deed poll process.

Once we have done so through the Judicial Working Group, we intend to also amend our existing Home Office guidance so that only enrolled deed polls (through the Royal Courts of Justice) are accepted as a proof of name change. We have also written to the Disclosure and Barring Service (DBS) to recommend that they undertake a feasibility study to determine the impact of requiring those seeking a DBS certificate to present a birth certificate alongside other primary and trusted Government documents.

Registered sex offenders are currently managed by the police. Tough checks and a range of legislative measures are available to the police to manage known sex offenders living in the community. Local police are in the best position to identify the risk posed by individuals.

Across the country, there are nearly 1,000 police officers who are dedicated full time to the management of sex offenders. These officers do not work in isolation. In a local area, all other police officers and PCSOs know who the relevant offenders are, and contribute towards their management in the course of their day-to-day policing duties.

The failure of a sex offender to tell police of a name change within three days is a criminal offence, with a maximum prison sentence of five years, and the Home Office already reserves the right not to issue a document in a new name to a registered sex offender.

Sex offenders have a duty under the law to notify the police when they change their name as part of their notification requirements. Offenders who attempt to hide a name change already face tough sentences. Where the police are notified that a sex offender has changed their name, the offender’s records will be updated on the Violent and Sex Offenders Register (also known as the ‘Sex Offenders Register’) and the Police National Computer. Her Majesty’s Passport Office (HMPO) relies on police forces to notify them of registered sex offenders so they can be flagged on HMPO systems.

If a sex offender then applies for a passport under a new name, HMPO will consider the application in consultation with the supervising police force. If the police have no objections and there are no other reasons to refuse, then the application will be granted and the new passport details provided to the supervising police force. HMPO requires anyone changing their name to be using that name for all purposes.

The Disclosure and Barring Service (DBS) plays a vital role in ensuring employers have the right information to help protect those in their care and prevent unsuitable people from working closely with them. ID guidelines for the DBS checks state that employers must ensure the applicant declares all previous name changes, and provides documentary proof to support the change of name. If the applicant is unable to provide proof to support the change of name for the check, it is for the employer to hold a probing discussion with the applicant about the reasons why before considering validating their identity.

Any decision not to issue a document will depend upon the purpose for the change of name, the nature of the offence committed and whether the change of name may be used to perpetrate further offending.

We will not allow sex offenders to evade justice and engage in criminality by attempting to change their identity

Home Office

This is a revised response. The Petitions Committee requested a response which more directly addressed the request of the petition. You can find the original response towards the bottom of the petition page petition.parliament.uk/petitions/300705

PenguindreamsofDraco · 15/04/2021 14:43

Tbf, Master M is very nice and an extremely good judge. (The first female Master, for whoever asked, is Senior Master Fontaine, who is even better). But the trans thing has become far 'louder' - Master M now includes pronouns on emails, for example, which wasn't the case even a couple of years ago, and now speaks out a lot more (I remember a rainbow-washed speech about 18 months ago about the spectrum of sex, which made me Hmm).
It's a shame in a way, I hope Master M doesn't end up somehow being defined by their trans history, they are genuinely good at the job.

R0wantrees · 15/04/2021 14:48

Its nothing to do with the niceness or otherwise of any particular judge.
Specific findings and involvement (such as the Bench Book) are relevant though.
See previous page for Master McCloud's judgement:

Neutral Citation Number: [2020] EWHC 279 (QB)
IN THE HIGH COURT OF JUSTICE
QUEEN’S BENCH DIVISION

IN THE MATTER OF THE ENROLMENT OF DEEDS (NAME CHANGE) REGULATIONS 1994 and s.133(1) SENIOR COURTS ACT 1981

IN THE MATTER OF THE HUMAN RIGHTS ACT 1998

Date 12 February 2020

PenguindreamsofDraco · 15/04/2021 18:59

I agree, of course it's not. I just felt a little balance might assist. My point was that Master M is unequivocally a very good judge, not someone benefiting from being one of the sacred caste. The bench book is utterly scandalous though.
I suppose I was also bemoaning that being trans is now so much more obvious a thing for them than it used to be, almost a distraction.
And yes to whoever mentioned it, they are married to another TW, whose name they took a few years back.

KeepPrisonsSingleSex · 13/05/2021 08:51

I see the Equal Treatment Bench Book, as well as Victoria McCloud's involvement in it, has been discussed here.

Forgive the bump with my article discussing how the law with regard to transgender people has been misrepresented by the Judicial College in the new edition of the Bench Book:

www.conservativehome.com/thecolumnists/2021/05/radical-the-criminal-justice-system-has-been-thoroughly-captured-by-gender-identity-ideology.html

R0wantrees · 15/07/2021 09:42

Times
'A review into sex offenders changing their names must bring about real change'
Sarah Champion
Thursday July 15 2021
(extract)
"I was stunned when last year I learnt about a gaping hole in safeguarding which means that registered sex offenders are changing their names without the knowledge of the police. This allows abusers to secure a Disclosure and Barring Service (DBS) check under their new name, which won’t flag their criminal past, and enables them to work with children or vulnerable people.

You’d be right in thinking; “Surely that’s not legal?”

Registered sex offenders are legally required to notify the police within three days if they change their name or address, or they face up to five years in prison. The problem is, this leaves the onus on the sex offender to report any changes in their information. How could the police know if an offender had changed their name and not told them? As the law stands, this loophole allows offenders to literally disappear.

By questioning ministers, I found that more than 16,000 sex offenders had breached their notification requirements in the past five years.

I am hugely grateful to Safeguarding Alliance, who first brought this issue to my attention. They uncovered that more than 900 registered sex offenders went missing between 2017 and 2020, and that was with only 16 of the 43 forces responding to their Freedom of Information requests, indicating this is the tip of the iceberg." (continues)
www.thetimes.co.uk/article/af26ad76-e4b6-11eb-a821-58982b1c936d?shareToken=d6a2ac79b2570e069cbd82633e9de831

R0wantrees · 15/07/2021 10:13

I see the Equal Treatment Bench Book, as well as Victoria McCloud's involvement in it, has been discussed here.

Policy Exchange
'Prejudging the transgendercontroversy?
Why the Equal Treatment Bench Book needs urgent revision'
by Thomas Chacko
Foreword by Charles Wide QC

(extract from Foreward)
"The ETBB used to be a booklet, the brevity of which greatly enhanced its utility in ensuring that those who might otherwise be disadvantaged could participate effectively in the legal process. It has grown into a gargantuan work of more than 500 pages. Its size alone risks compromising its usefulness. However, a deeper problem lies in the development of its content which has strayed beyond crisp, practical advice, for a welldefined purpose, into an attempt to give a socio-political account of the problems faced by every ‘community’ of disadvantaged minorities.
Focusing on Chapter 12 Trans People, as this was relied on by the
Employment Tribunal, this paper describes the ETBB’s potential for tilting the balance in proceedings against those, for example, who do not accept certain terminology. Further, it identifies the risk of the ETBB being relied on as a source of law and evidence, thus playing a part in judicially decided outcomes, short-circuiting the rules of evidence and the necessary conventions concerned with hearing competing submissions by the parties to litigation. Readers of Chapter 12 may perceive a lack of balance in its general tone and trajectory. Statements of fact are made without citing sources. Numerous research papers, reports, and articles are cited but there is no critical evaluation of them nor are the criteria for their selection explained. The extent of legitimate controversy is unrepresented.
The risk of language being used as a campaigning tool is unacknowledged.

The ETBB comes close to putting participants (i.e. people involved in a court case) in control of the language the judge may use. However, judges will find little help in resolving a practical difficulty such as that which arises if a rape complainant wishes to say ‘he’ of a trans defendant who wants to be referred as ‘she’. It is hard to avoid the impression that, in relation to what is ‘acceptable’ terminology, the ETBB has taken its tone from activists." (continues)

policyexchange.org.uk/publication/prejudging-the-transgender-controversy/

highame · 15/07/2021 10:53

nauticant there's quite a few odd things happen e.g. recommending comments sometimes undoes? also I had one comment that had loads of recommends and during the night disappeared. Someone commented that perhaps the US moderates get on and annihilate the comments. I also find that it depends on the article. We are usually on the most controversial articles and therefore lots of moderation taking place. I also find, if I've had a comment deleted, they moderate everything I post for a short while.

I look at it this way. One of the commenters will be saying what I wanted to say, so the points are never lost.

highame · 15/07/2021 10:56

That is one really good article from the Policy Exchange. I posted it on a separate thread but the more widely available, the better. This really does take a good forensic look at what's been going on and it's impact on the Judiciary (and anyone involved in law

ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 15/07/2021 10:57

Are sex offenders currently prevented from gaining a GRC?

R0wantrees · 15/07/2021 11:11

Are sex offenders currently prevented from gaining a GRC?

Convictions do not prevent/influence the issuing of a GRC.

As demonstrated by STILLTish's article and case study,
gendercriticalwoman.wordpress.com/2019/10/10/gender-recognition-certificates/

EmbarrassingAdmissions · 15/07/2021 19:44

@aliasundercover

That Chris Rock quote is excellent.

The same principle can be applied to many of the 'first women to...'. Women have always had the ability to do these , but not the opportunity.

It says everything - it speaks about the centuries of squandered talent and the time wasted in deliberately choosing not to make the progress that was always possible.
MrsWooster · 15/07/2021 19:58

I personally welcome the contributions of Robin et al on these threads. Their descent, with the usual disdainful personsplaining of the issue in hand, ALWAYS leads to clear, clinical rebuttals from FWR women which shed much ☀️ on this topic.

NiceGerbil · 18/07/2021 19:19

I can't read the article.

Does McCloud specify which groups could do with more representation?

EmbarrassingAdmissions · 18/07/2021 19:24

@NiceGerbil

I can't read the article.

Does McCloud specify which groups could do with more representation?

She adds that a crop of transgender judges “would be welcome”, arguing that the judiciary needs to reflect wider society. She accepts that the bench has been slow to diversify. McCloud says that there are “very nice, decent and professional people in the judiciary waiting to welcome able, diverse new judges, and I hope to see some trans people as colleagues before I move on. What is vitally important is that we drive towards diversity in the judiciary, where gender, race or any other factor save ability are not factors holding anyone back.”

archive version: archive.ph/SePaU