The Times Law section Thursday 1st April. Trans judge wants a more diverse judiciary

[happydappy2]

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/victoria-mccloud-a-transgender-judge-wants-a-more-diverse-judiciary-jc7rqhbc9

The comments are interesting...

As Mrs C puts it very succinctly in the comments "If the judiciary needs to reflect wider society, 51% of the judiciary should be female, 48.5% male and 0.5% trans"

Gaslighting nonsense over the use of master.

www.etymonline.com/word/master

The lengths gone to in order to gaslight are a sight to behold.

If Victoria wants a more diverse judiciary why not resign and let someone who is not a white male have a go?

Its quite bizarre that people think trans women retain some sort of male privilege. You'd think there would be a lot more of them in the board room if that was the case.

As Mrs C puts it very succinctly in the comments "If the judiciary needs to reflect wider society, 51% of the judiciary should be female, 48.5% male and 0.5% trans"

That was my favourite comment too.

@DisgustedofManchester

Its quite bizarre that people think trans women retain some sort of male privilege. You'd think there would be a lot more of them in the board room if that was the case.

Well V used their considerable male privilege to get to the bar in the first place, then retains the benefits of at least 25 years of male socialisation I’m not sure what is going to change?

Looking in from outside there is a general visible pattern of behaviour. Men do not tend to react to a transwoman in the same way that they do to a woman.

We have had that confirmed for us recently on here.

Ditto to the comment. Looking forward to the diversity wrt sex, race, disability etc too.

If it is not about ability, then it must be about Sex. And if we can't see sex, we can't see sexism.

From the article:

"McCloud, who has now spent almost half her life and virtually all of her legal career as a woman, says: “ I positively identify as female and always have .” She has “slightly reluctantly” taken to using terms such as “trans” or “transgender” when the context makes it necessary, accepting her “duty to be willing to be somewhat visible”.

The judge insists that it is “only really on special occasions such as this [interview]” that she considers her transgender status..."

But literally the only reason McCloud is able to positively identify themselves as 'female' and 'a woman' is because of a transgender status.

Somehow McCloud finds they are able to put mental consideration of the fact that they are trans to one side most of the time. Are others so lucky? Do we get to control how others see us?

Like McCloud, I am in my early fifties and we overlapped at university; Christ Church only started admitting female undergraduates in 1980 and Oxford colleges made relatively few - if any - concessions to their new female students. Even by the late 80s/early 90s, Oxford was still a place of male privilege and sexism - and old boy networks were strong. Those connections and privileges continue loooong after university days are over. I still experience the privilege. And you don't get to turn privilege off just because you feel like a different character to the way you once were. That's not how privilege works.

As the type of woman who has spent all her life as a female, my last month has been dominated by a pregnancy scare, now thankfully resolved, something that McCloud will never have been personally or professionally bothered by, along with many other exclusively female experiences.

Women, whatever our 'gender expression', don't have the luxury of setting our actual female biology to one side most of the time...

Middle-class White male born in Surrey, educated at Oxbridge.
Parents in professional roles.

It's funny how diversity means more white men, whose difference is either their chosen gender identity or sexual orientation.
Diversity rarely means more natal women, or individual of different ethnicities.

When you read about the privilege and luxury beliefs in this article, you are left in awe at the achievements of Allison Bailey.
Black, working class, female, survivor of abuse.
Anyhow mustn't derail the topic, I couldn't help comparing the two.

@AdHominemNonSequitur

As Mrs C puts it very succinctly in the comments "If the judiciary needs to reflect wider society, 51% of the judiciary should be female, 48.5% male and 0.5% trans"

Absolutely! And @zanahoria good point!

@ANewCreation says Oxford colleges made relatively few - if any - concessions to their new female students. Even by the late 80s/early 90s, Oxford was still a place of male privilege and sexism - and old boy networks were strong

I overlapped with McCloud as well, and I agree with the above quote. I’d also go as far as to say that at Oxford, if you were a white, middle class clever male, you could get away with an enormous amount of what would have been termed ‘eccentricity’. A man wandering around one of those quads attempting to pass as a female would not necessarily be seen as a drawback, whereas actual females turning up and expecting to be taken seriously as students was a bridge too far for many men.

@IDontOnlyLikeJazzFunk

Called to the Bar in 1995, she was a tenant at Coram Chambers, where she practised general civil and costs law and has been an editor and author of the White Book, the bible of the civil courts, since 2000.

Transitioning in the late 1990s after starting out as a barrister.

So McCloud had full benefit of white male advantage in gaining their place at the bar (which by the fact that there are so few women and only one woman at the highest level obviously removed quite a significant hurdle for McCloud).

I remember seeing Dr McCloud in the Sunday Times list of Top 100 Women of the Year - ironically feted for McCloud's work to help trans people by making it easier to change their names and conceal any previous names. Thus undermining the DBS checking system. I'm not sure what the outcome was.

You appear to have no idea how the DBS system works. Your comments are wrong.

You appear to have no idea how the DBS system works. Your comments are wrong.

Can you elaborate please?

Whoops, getting picked up on a technicality there. Because that is the point of the thread?

Rather than getting dragged into Robin's usual "feminist chat" can I suggest an alternative opinion.

Really good conversation. If time limited, skip to the last ten minutes to hear a transsexual's (their preferred identity) empathy for women. It is a rare sight.

@IDontOnlyLikeJazzFunk

You appear to have no idea how the DBS system works. Your comments are wrong.

Can you elaborate please?

It is also interesting that Jane Fae (a name some of us may be familiar with) has written an article minimising the effect of making such name changes 'more discreet'.

There is currently a petition with the government that raises serious security and safeguarding concerns about this.

Please could you share your legal understanding as to why this would not contribute to undermining the integrity of the DBS checks (originally brought in as CRB following the murders of Holly Wells and Jessica Chapman by Ian Huntley whose previous history should have barred him from working near any children).

If it does not undermine the DBS checks I'm sure we would all be happy to have our minds put at rest on this if you are able.

That would be one less thing to worry about!

[quote Scepticaltank]Whoops, getting picked up on a technicality there. Because that is the point of the thread?

Rather than getting dragged into Robin's usual "feminist chat" can I suggest an alternative opinion.

Really good conversation. If time limited, skip to the last ten minutes to hear a transsexual's (their preferred identity) empathy for women. It is a rare sight.[/quote]
How funny. Please don't think the likes of Miranda Yardley and Debbie Hayton reflect the views of more than 0.0000001% of trans folk. I feel quite sorry for them.

But, as these pages often say, we are all part of a great trans hegemony...

Diversity usually means different types of men, sadly.

"The likes of"

Ouch! ;)

He does say Debbie is now close to taking his title as the worlds most hated transsexual. By trans people.

It seems he's neck and neck.

@IDontOnlyLikeJazzFunk

You appear to have no idea how the DBS system works. Your comments are wrong.

Can you elaborate please?

Robin doesn’t elaborate. Still waiting for Robin to elaborate on consent for puberty blockers, and analysis of the paper showing most boys desist over time. Robin tends to rubbish such ideas then leave.

And if you are sneery about a hegemony at the same time as providing an interestingly specific and detailed percentage prevalence rate of a different opinion, are you not contradicting yourself?

How funny. Please don't think the likes of Miranda Yardley and Debbie Hayton reflect the views of more than 0.0000001% of trans folk. I feel quite sorry for them.

It's likely they feel sorry for you as well. It's a two way street.

Robin doesn’t elaborate. Still waiting for Robin to elaborate on consent for puberty blockers, and analysis of the paper showing most boys desist over time. Robin tends to rubbish such ideas then leave.

That is a shame - I am genuinely up for someone explaining this to me and demonstrating (properly, with evidence - I'm pedantic like that) that making it easier for people to change their names and hide previous names isn't going to undermine the DBS system.

I have quite enough on my plate to worry about at the moment what with my daughters being speedily being stripped of their rights so one less thing would be a blessing.

Robin - can you explain why I am so wrong please?

Incidentally, you dismiss Debbie Hayton and Miranda Yardley's views out of hand and claim that they are unrepresentative. How many gc transsexuals do there need to be before you would accept them as representative of at least a portion of trans people?

There are a growing number of transsexuals that support women's rights - I have had conversations with several and follow quite a few on twitter etc.

Interestingly, from my own straw poll, there seems to be a higher portion of post surgery transsexuals that support women's rights to single sex spaces than pre-surgery. I would have expected it to be the other way round.

Why do they feel able to use the men's facilities and others, who haven't had surgery don't?

You appear to have no idea how the DBS system works. Your comments are wrong.

Previous relevant thread, OP Ali1cedowntherabbithole wrote, Thu 12-Sep-19

"Reply from Home Office re DBS and GRC
I contacted my MP after the questions raised on the thread linked below. I asked for clarification about identity checks for DBS could be verified if someone has a GRC and is living with a new identity.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3653715-Challenor-showing-off-their-new-birth-certificate.

MP didn't bother to reply but I have received the following "correspondence reply" from the Home Office.

Thank you for your email xxx to the Minister for Children and Families about the Disclosure Barring Service ( DBS and your concerns on the effectiveness of the checks that are made on people who are transgender , which has been passed to the Home Office for a reply.

One of the important roles of the DBS is to help employers make safer recruitment deci-sions to ensure that people who want to work with children and vulnerable adults do not have a previous record of causing them harm. An essential part of this public protection role is to check the identity of the applicant through the verification of the documents they use to prove their identity. DBS checks are therefore dependent upon being able to con-firm and verify all names used by an individual when checking whether they might pose a threat to others, for example whether they have been convicted of a serious offence.

For these very important reasons, applicants for a DBS check are asked to produce doc-uments from a primary set (a current valid passport issued by any country, UK photo card driving licence, UK biometric residence permit or a UK birth certificate issued within 12 months of birth) together with other trusted Government issued documents or finan-cial/social history documents. This includes ensuring that the applicant provides details of all addresses where they have lived in the last five years. The DBS guidance has been carefully constructed to ensure that the process is as secure as possible and is kept under review.

Our policies must adhere to the important protections afforded to transgender people, such as protecting an individual’s gender history, which are enshrined in the Gender Recogni-tion Act 2004.

Being able to validate an identity is a crucial part of ensuring that a criminal record disclo-sure is sent to the right person, rather than to someone who has adopted a false identity in order to hide a criminal past. The Government believes that the above process provides the right balance of maintaining high standards of identity checking, whilst at the same time, not being so restrictive that it prevents legitimate applicants from completing the DBS identity checking process.

I hope this is helpful in explaining the position.

So basically "an essential part of this public protection role is to check the identity of the applicant through the verification of the documents they use to prove their identity" unless they have a GRC and then it doesn't matter.

There is no safeguarding."
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3690840-Reply-from-Home-Office-re-DBS-and-GRC

As Mrs C puts it very succinctly in the comments "If the judiciary needs to reflect wider society, 51% of the judiciary should be female, 48.5% male and 0.5% trans"

So agree... and another cheer for Allison Bailey - TRULY EXTRAORDINARY and to be celebrated, not villainised

So basically "an essential part of this public protection role is to check the identity of the applicant through the verification of the documents they use to prove their identity" unless they have a GRC and then it doesn't matter.

There is no safeguarding."

Well that is rather interesting - thank you R0wantrees (I saw someone earlier refer to your encyclopaedic knowledge - they were right).

I also note that they accept a valid passport or a UK driving licence as proof of id together with trusted government issued documents (such as NHS number?).

This is rather concerning as we know that it is possible to change both name and sex marker on passport and driving licence just by completing the form (and enclosing a letter bought from GenderGP). The Passport Office and DVLA don't keep any records of who has changed their sex marker (and presumably name?).

Having just renewed my driving licence I was impressed by how streamlined the process was - as I have a UK passport, I just put the passport number in and all the data populated across, I ticked the box to say it was correct and bingo - job done. I didn't even need a new photo as it was on my passport. Note, you don't need a GRC to change your details on your passport.

From the passport section of gov.uk

www.gov.uk/changing-passport-information/gender

Gender change
Send one of the following when you apply for a passport:

a Gender Recognition Certificate
a new birth or adoption certificate showing your acquired gender
a letter from your doctor or medical consultant confirming your change of gender is likely to be permanent

How does this process represent any significant barrier to someone who was keen to conceal a past identity for any reason? I'm not sure that it does.